What about a Starship Troopers-esque system where service was not compulsory, but in order to receive full citizenship, civilians must serve. You could combine this with the inclusion of diplomatic, medical, engineering, etc. service.

That's a patronising argument, imho, Octavious. What are you suggesting, only citizens who can demonstrate a certain level of "care" ( and how is that defined ? measured ?) and an "approved" level of understanding of the issues are permitted to vote ?

The will be a rise of medical exemptions among the rich for bone spurs to avoid serving in the military. It kept Trump out of Vietnam.

I'm not sure about compulsory voting in the U.S., but if I were to agree it would be for the following reason: the U.S. has a long history of state and local governments of interfering with their citizens' right to vote. For an obvious and brutal example, there was at least a 100-year gap between the nominal right of all black men to vote and the practical ability of those citizens to exercise that right. For U.S. elections, I think it is unreasonable to assume that low voter turnout is caused by political apathy.

Today, there are many practical barriers to voting erected by state and local governments, and I need very little evidence to be persuaded that this is for the purpose of rigging elections in favor of entrenched, incumbent interests.

For example, in the county where I grew up, elections for school officials were placed on a different day than all the other elections that year. This had the result of reducing the turnouts for such elections to less than 20%. I cannot believe that this scheduling has any other purpose than creating a practical barrier to citizen participation in the school elections.

I predict that a mandatory voting law would greatly damage the ability of state and local officials to try to rig the vote in favor of entrenched interests.

It is demonstrated, MM, by their willingness to bother to vote. A concept that I don't find anywhere near as patronising as the one apparently held in Australia that many people will only take an interest in politics if you force them to. Politicians should go out and earn people's votes, not rely on the notion that they'll vote regardless and all they need to get it is be the least worse option.

Well, the one obvious error in Octavious' argument is that the authorities in many parts of the US actively prevent people from voting, such that a lot of the "voluntary" non-voting is the result of efforts to remove the vote from minorities and political opponents. Add to that the hacking of voter rolls in many states, and the US elections aren't very representative of the will of the people. We'd have a very different government is all citizens were allowed to vote and the system weren't so heavily rigged. Any time a party repeatedly gets a minority of the votes but ends up with 60% of the seats, you're looking at basically a one-party state. I beleive that currently Democrats have to win national elections by about 5% in order to break even in terms of seats in the house.

I'd prefer prison terms for governments that illegally bar citizens from voting. That'd deal with the issue pretty promptly.

@MM, I'm not sure what you mean what kind of reward? It'd be the same pay and benefits the military receive of course.

Never thought I’d see the day a leftist claimed Netanyahu is anything short of a dictator.

And another boneheaded response from TrPrado. He is a racist and neofascist, but a freely elected one with strong support from the Israeli public. If and when he loses a vote, he will leave office. Of course, Israel is an apartheid state, but that is by popular support of the ruling ethnicity that is entitled to vote, much as Jim Crow and Apartheid were maintained by popular support from the ruling racists. It has little to do with it's national conscription.

And I guess you think that Australia is ruled by the Queen or something?

I think there are several errors in what Octavious posted. The act of voting does not axiomatically demonstrate "care", for example the voter who deliberately chooses the worst candidates because they want a disfunctional Parliament.
Plus this erroneous notion that people will only be interested in voting if you force them to vote.. There's the example of the disenfranchised ( historical example.. Women ) actively campaigning for the right to vote.
Plus compulsory voting does not equate to compulsory valid voting, eg voters who cast invalid votes ( informal votes )

“He is a racist and neofascist, but a freely elected one with strong support from the Israeli public.”

I mean I guess that depends how you define “support” or “Israeli public.”

@ Ogion
freeloaders? like lawyers?

Also this idea that Politicians have to work harder if voting is voluntary is, imho, a nonsense. If a politician knows that the actual numbers of people voting is far less than those entitled to vote, then they can do less work ..just get the endorsement of an organisation that can deliver votes..that's how the "religious right" in the USA operates, so the successful candidate only has to get the support of a select few who are the power brokers of a "political machine" to be elected..eg Tammany Hall politics in the USA

@ Ogion
lying incompetent zillionaires! ? like george soros?

@ Ogion
racist and neofascist,
like the sierra club and planned parenthood?

"free loaders ? Like lawyers"... @Ogion... Hang on, offensive / insulting comment about a group, but isn't that what Ogion's critics accuse him of doing ? ( of course none of Ogion's critics would do exactly what they accuse Ogion of doing...or would they ???) Naughty Capt Brad.

Forced action is oppressive.

Compulsory anything is morally wrong.

So compelling me to not murder you is morally wrong? Right. I think we can put that stupidity to bed

If I was conscripted by the government to go overseas and shoot (probably innocent) people because our corporate elitists want more oil or resources, I'd probably kindly give them the middle finger.

The Swiss model of requiring people to join the militia which is entirely a defense force is one I might consider in certain situations. I'd have to look into it more though.
It at least worked in making Swizz unconquerable in Diplomacy.

Inaction isn’t compelled.

The government doesn’t go around putting a gun to my head saying “alright now go not murder.”

It sure is compelled. Don't do this or we'll killl you sure is compulsion.

So the lack of action is not distinct from the presence of action?

Compulsory action implies there is an action you are forced to take at particular times or for certain periods of time. That does not exist in the banning of certain actions that harm others. The distinction is obvious and I have no idea how you’re missing it.

Because it's still compulsion, which you said is tyrannical. No doubt you're one of these whackadoodle "taxes is theft" people. (Actually living in society without paying your share is theft).

In any event, your point is a really stupid one, because being compelled to do something (like pay taxes, serve in the military) isn't tyranny. Tyranny is being hauled off to a gulag or being murdered in dumped in the sea for having political opinions. You conservatives are such a bunch of coddled snowflakes you have ZERO notion of what actual tyranny is because you've never been out of sight. Go live in an actual dictatorship and report back when you understand something about the world.

Thanks.

“He is a racist and neofascist, but a freely elected one with strong support from the Israeli public.”

I mean I guess that depends how you define “support” or “Israeli public.”

Compare to Palestine's Gaza Strip with no elections in 10 years since Hamas was voted into power. Iran with a committee to determine who is eligible to run for election. Any of the countries that replaced it's elected government with a military coup like Pakistan or most of Africa, Central America, and South America at one time or another.

Or the colony countries that used a military revolution to remove their imperial leaders like the United States.

Every leader in Israel has been elected and the US under Bush I forced under threat of cutting off all aid the change in government.

I think of all the compulsory regulations, like making companies install pollution control equipment, or safety features on products, or worker standards (like limits on truck drivers time) that keep you safe every damn day of your life. Apparently saving people's lives is morally wrong.

That explains a lot about your world view, actually.

let's just draft lawyers as infantry. give them one bullet for their rifle and send them to the frontline in afganistan. it will solve more problems than you know