I'm sorry, I dont understand "backsies".

Alright, let's reframe. Do you think that in a democracy it's good and moral for the demos to have no influence over the way they are governed because of the diktats of the past?

Not at all.

The law can and must be reformed by legal ways.

The only article cited that I think can be construed as making it illegal outright is Article 2:

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

The movement stemmed from Spanish courts impeding on Catalan self-governance.

So the government acted illegally first? Really gets my noggin jogging.

Self-governance is defined by he same constitution. On article 148 you can read what a regional governement can do. No right to make a polling vote about independence anywhere.

"Organization of their institutions of self-governance" seems to be vague enough to allow it.

By the way, I'm watching the news about the vote today. Many people voting twice o three times. Votes inside the polling boxes (I dont know the word for that in English) BEFORE it started the election, and more...

Dude, you are braindead.

It may be vague. That's why Spain has a Constitutional Court.

And can you conceive where the Constitutional Court would rule in some other way, even if it were less vague and weighed even heavier to allow independence?

I can conceive the Constitution is changed by THE LEGAL WAY to allow the independence of any region.

Btw, does your country allow to independence any territory at any time?

And the larger Spanish government would abide by that?

The Spanish Constitution can be changed in any article if the people votes parties which wants to change it.

You didnt ask me if you live in a country in wich any territory can independence itself at any time. I dont even know a country like that.

The word for fixing a vote is electoral fraud. But expecting a mainstream party to campaign on the platform of releasing a single territory seems to me like a losing proposition.

Third party supports that Catalonia (and other regions) can independent itself. They have 71 congressmen. Spain is a strange country. But it proves that everything could be done by legal ways.

Yes, the handling of this is a mess. I'd also suggest letting it happen and dismissing it as a vanity exercise roughly akin to a polling company doing an opinion poll but with a larger and biased sample.

Then dismiss it and any "declaration". None of it matters until people start to break the law by not paying taxes, etc. then you arrest them for that.

Actually California is working on an independence vote., although it's merely advisory. There would have to be a constitutional amendment to authorize it. Since much of the country wants to secede and much of the rest want the blue states to secede I suspect it might actually be doable.

@Ogion

If you think a constitutional amendment would ever get passed in this political climate you are sorely mistaken. Calexit is a joke, never gonna happen.

I would never think the US is better off dividing, even peacefully.

Do the math, condescension.

First, it wouldn;t be just California, but a coalition of blue states. Roughly, it'd be a split in which most blue states leave:
California, Oregon, Hawaii, Washington, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts Vermont. Given the tax situation in which blue states are over taxed and underrepresented, I'd give odds to being joined by Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Hampshire, and quite possibly Illinois (Colorado and New Mexico would oppose of course). That's fifteen.

Of the remaining 35 states, I'm pretty certain that deep red states whose population are certain that California and New York are sucking down their tax dollars would vote to send California and New York packing. Not that it is in their interest to do so, but because in their delusion they think it is. Remember these state legislatures are packed with the most looney Republicans due to safe-seat gerrymandering, so they don't give a rats ass anyone not voting in GOP primaries think. Do you really think any of those guys are going to want to face reelection on a "I voted to keep California around" platform? They'd be roasted by the Tea Party and white supremacists!

I'm pretty sure you could get at least 8 of the confederate states to go along, with the exception of Florida and maybe Virginia. That's 23.

So of the Western states, a similar "don't want to be told what to do by liberals" could net us Kansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Indiana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Utah, West Virginia, Nebraska. That's 36. Bribe Nevada and Maine and that's the state houses.

Do you really think that we couldn't get 2/3 of the vote in the Senate and House, if the blue state representatives and Senators (that's most of the Democrats) were to joing the looney GOP to vote in favor?

Maybe. However, I have a VERY hard time seeing any of those state legislatures listed NOT voting to kick out New York and California even if it's kill their economies.

And Stressed lines, few of your fellow conservatives agree, and I think once the blue states start adding up, they'll realize pretty fast they're WAY better off outside the US. half the country is just a backward drag those states just don't need.

Except for sentiment, I'm not sure what the rationale for keeping the US together is. Half the country isn't going to want to be under a perennially unrepresentative government, and the other half hates the folks they're lording it over.

Ultimately, a profoundly unrepresentative institution like the federal government is going to have some serious serious strains. Eventually, it will split up, one way or another.

Sentiment is a damn good reason not to break up a country and it would be remarkably stupid to simply propose doing so even if that were the only reason.

I'm of the opinion that any law which prevents a group of willing people from being able to split off from the country and partake in self government is fundamental violation of human liberties.

So naturally my sympathies are 110% with Catalonia.

But then I have no respect for the idea of a constitution as a binding document on future generations, or as a document that all regions are required to follow.

You think Kansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Indiana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Utah, West Virginia, Nebraska those states would vote with the blue states?

Maybe I need to hear this in person, cuz i think you want them to vote you out, yes?

What makes the blue states so much stronger in this scenario? I have lived in both, understand the dynamics of both, and we suck alone,

If it does split, better peacefully, but i fear it wont be like that. I suspect it will be via arms

Nuclear weapons and strong military powers are even greater reasons not to break up a country. International security and stability could go down the toilet. Catalonia doesn’t have those caveats, which are the only situations where I would disagree with damian’s statements.

Actually "strong military powers" are a great reason to break up the country. Red states mindlessly vote ever more money into the giant sinkhole that is the US military and blue states have to pay for it.

Long story short, our culture, values and way of life are under attack and blue states won't be able to achieve what they ought to be with redstates trying to drag these diverse, knowledge driven, open economies back into some racist Middle Ages all the time

Humanity would be a lot better off this way, because the blue states could contribute to human understanding while the restates would no longer have enough of an economy to do as much harm as they do now

Stressed, all we would have to do is say "with the blue states gone, you'll never have to be governed by a black person ever again" and the resolutions would pass unanimously.

“Actually "strong military powers" are a great reason to break up the country.”

Maybe if your goal is to bait an international crisis.