the site's / owners' rule changes a little while ago were controversial .... killed the 2 person draw but maybe that's ok

@Bladerunner: 2 way draws are still a thing... unless between ghug and meme...

Q: Survivor's win scoring. What is this?
A: I'm not entirely sure, but it's definitely not Diplomacy.

@PF - no they';re not ... almost impossible now .. . very frequent 2+ years ago

The Premier League table is an aggregation of 380 games between 2 opponents, not a single game among 20.

Peregrine Falcon: I think Bladerunners is saying that WTA scoring turns people into big, giant, squawking chickens. People are afraid to try a 2-way draw with WTA scoring.

bump

C-diplo ftw!

I don't find people afraid to two way with WTA scoring. It's great for me cause then I can solo and take the whole pot.

bump

I have definitely two way drawn with uclabb. I think he ended up with 19 or 20 centres.

ha ha

so why are they all playing with dummies, as if they could tell the difference?

Thanks JECE for cutting through the untruthful propaganda about PPSC being a "survivors win" scoring system. As you make clear, with PPSC ( when there is a winner, not a draw ) there can only ever be one winner, other players are the defeated players and the survivors. The defeated players get no points from the pot, the winner gets the greatest share, and the survivors get a small share.
DSS and SoS are both forms of winner takes all. The only difference is when a draw occurs...with DSS all participants in a draw share the points equally...with SoS the shares are not equal but are based on how many sc's each player has..so reward is more directly related to performance.

@ ATC...those of us who wanted to keep PPSC were asked to give the new DSS and SoS a chance, and we were PROMISED that if we ceased our vigorous campaign to keep PPSC and gave DSS and SoS a "trial period" then there would be a review and a new discussion.
I accepted those PROMISES in good faith....what a FUCKING fool I was... ( you know how I feel about using F*** in the forum and how rarely I use it, so my deliberate use of it in capital letters on this occasion might give you a clue as to just how pissed off I get when I read "revisionism" related to the PPSC discussions when DSS & SoS were introduced, and the realisation that those persons who made those commitments/promises about a review and further discussion after a "trial period" are, imho, just a bunch of FUCKING LIARS.)
Winner takes all treats survivors the same as if they had been defeated... Survive with fourteen sc's, and narrowly miss forcing a draw... Get FUCK ALL,.... exactly the same as the player who NMR's in 01 and is defeated by 03
We never demanded that a non wta scoring system be the default, we just want it as an optional choice...but no freedom of choice, it's a totalitarian WTA dictatorship

PS there's a lot of very good reasons why professional sports such as tennis and golf do NOT use "winner takes all" to divide up prizemonies...mainly to do with having an understanding about how to keep their sports sustainable, about how to support the players ranked between 11th & 500th, not just those in the top ten

"We never demanded that a non wta scoring system be the default"

I did. I gave detailed explanations for why PPSC scoring should remain the default scoring system back when PPSC was stripped of its default status in favor of WTA. The main issues where webDip benefits from having PPSC as its default scoring system are encouraging players to join games in progress, providing clear goals for 'great powers' reduced to a handful of SC's (or single SC) and providing an overall fairer scoring system for new players to the game that still remains true to the rulebook.

"That still remains true to the rulebook."

You must be using a different rulebook. Surviving is losing.

1) we absolutely did do the review we promised. Don't claim we didn't.

2) it remains the case that there were only 3 (incredibly vocal) members who won't let the decision drop.

3) I don't work here any more.

I find it funny that the same people that are upset at the name "Survivors-Win" are the same people that want to bring it back because they want to win points for surviving.

It's a perfectly fine and fitting name, because survivors do in fact win points for their efforts.

@A_Tin_Can: Your "review" consisted of you and a couple of other people looking at the stats and concluding "people haven't flocked away from the site so everything must be fine" and then making the changes permanent. There was no consultation with site members, no re-opening of discussion, just a final decision from some little dictators.

That was NOT what was promised - don't claim it was.

I understand this site is not a democracy, but don't you dare claim that the decision to make the changes permanent was based on any kind of proper consultation or review of the feelings of users - because it absolutely was not.

He didn't claim that.

We chose to remove PPSC because we felt (and still feel) that it is a poor variant of Diplomacy. We acknowledged that a few of you disagreed with us, claiming that its removal would hurt the site, and agreed to review site data to question that claim. We found no evidence that it was hurting the site, and we don't feel that the scoring system is worth keeping on its own merits outside of that, so it stays gone. There are still other places to play PPSC online if you want it.

To "review site data" is not what was promised when PPSC was first removed, Ghuggles.

Here is what ATC said in his original announcement in December 2015:

threadID=1325897

"However, an even bigger change is that we’ve temporarily disabled PPSC for new games. This is a big change, and it may not be permanent, depending on feedback."

"We canvassed opinion before and after making the change, and we will continue to do so."

That, to me, says that the Mods / Devs would not just review data, but would seek feedback from members before making the change permanent. Then you didn't do that at all.

feed·back
ˈfēdˌbak/
noun
1.information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
synonyms: response, reaction, comments, criticism; More

The mods got like 2 emails.

Sorry, we got 1 email. There were like 4 unique users that opposed the decision.

Did you ask for emails?
Did you get an email from me?

Users who opposed the decision to remove PPSC as an option included at least the following:

- Jamiet99uk
- DeepComa
- MajorMitchell
- JECE
- dirge
- Al Swearengen
- Tasnica
- thorfi
- Gobbledydook
- Octavious
- Chumbles

Not just 4.

That list includes the users who were all "I don't see why it shouldn't be an option", not the users who actually wanted to play the variant.

The site logs suggest that having too many options means fewer games get played. So we opted to removed unpopular variants, in order to maintain a healthy site.

We did continue to canvas feedback. It was concluded that most users (and the entire moderator team at the time) don't agree with you.

Anyway, arguing over the semantics is pointless. Webdiplomacy is not, and never will be, a democracy. BUT, even if it was, PPSC would still have been removed.

I'm not sure why I respond to you every time you bring this up. Let me repeat two things, and add one more point that I haven't articulated before:

1) The claim that the site health would be hurt by the removal of PPSC was flatly rejected by the data in the site logs.

2) There are no new arguments, bringing this up every few months isn't going to change anything.

3) It was *two years ago* that I chose to spend my Christmas holidays reworking the way the scoring worked on webdiplomacy. I made changes that many users had asked for - and I added a new scoring mode to bring us in line with the FTF community (with the goal of attracting more players, which I think has been largely successful). Additionally, we added unranked scoring modes for those who wanted to play unusual scoring modes like PPSC. Two years have passed and yet you still won't let this drop - why do you think I decided not to bother spending any more holidays working on the site?

Find something better to do with your time. I sure did.