That wasn't rhetorical, btw, I'm genuinely curious.

As it happens Abgemacht I think the points system should be scrapped entirely. Now we have both Ghostrating and Reliability Rating, I don't think it serves any useful purpose. This isn't some kind of boardgaming casino.

While we still have the points system I think PPSC should be retained.

That doesn't even come close to answering his question.

@ Bo_Sox: While your fellow mods openly mock players for raising genuine concerns regarding the way the player base is consulted / engaged with / treated, I shall choose to disregard your remarks.

I will endeavour to give abgemacht (for whom I have some respect) a more detailed answer when I have time.

My fellow mods have opinions too and we sometimes show our human side and bypass professionalism in the name of expressing these opinions. I understand that there is a different perception when a moderator posts, but we are not advised by a PR firm prior to posting. Occasionally, we could use one.

As for disregarding me, that's fine, you can, but I'm genuinely curious as well. I remember the discussion we had when it was removed but only vaguely. At this point, I recall that PPSC was removed because, as abge said, it is terrible. This forum provides an outlet for the open discourse on PPSC that you so desperately want the moderators to jumpstart, but I don't see why you and those of you who want us to open a sponsored discussion on it can't take the initiative to do so yourself. Given that you apparently perceive that your opinions are being unfairly squashed, that would make sense.

abgemacht: We touched on this in the last few pages of threadID=1431155.

What is the point of having a "discourse" when the official position of the webDiplomacy powers-that-be is that any opinions expressed in favour of PPSC will be ignored and/or "thrown in the trash" ?

If you took that so seriously that you interpret that as "the official position" of the moderators, you're a little more dense than I thought, and I already thought you were pretty dense. You aren't being ignored. I wouldn't be talking with you if you were. Start a discussion, or continue the one that JECE is referring to. This is supposed to be ATC's thread.

bo_sox48: It's not a very logical place to look, but we did jumpstart the discussion in the last few pages of threadID=1431155.

@Jamiet

I, too, hate points and wish to see them gone, but I don't really see how that's relevant here.

I would definitely be in favor of a scoring system which was PPSC upon a draw and WTA upon a solo. Personally, I really dislike SoS for a variety of reasons. Is this what you want or do you really want the original PPSC in which a solo still was PPSC?

If you want the fullest discussion possible on PPSC, I would start a thread on it.

@Bo_Sox: When ATC still had a comedy cube he also said that the matter was closed and that no further consultation would be entertained.

I'm not being dense. I've been told by two site officials, posting in their official capacity, that my opinion was unwanted and would be rejected. I hope you can understand why I found that disheartening and why it might have reduced my enthusiasm for further time spent explaining my position.

I appreciate you are taking a different attitude and I welcome that. I posted a lengthy defence of PPSC when it was first removed some time back, and I will see if I can find that for you.

@abgemacht:

I also dislike SoS, I'm with you on that.

What I really want is a scoring system that discourages draws. I think that comparing WTA to PPSC, it is WTA which is more inclined to result in a draw. I made a detailed explanation of that based on real game experiences - I'll try to dig it out rather than re-typing the whole thing (it was quite long).

There may end up being no more consultation on it. The mod team as a whole works on that, not just me. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it. So long as you aren't spamming things, you can always talk about it. This is the most open online forum that I've ever been on and even with things a tad more stringent now than they used to be, it still is. You don't have any reason to feel ignored.

@Bo_Sox: Well there's my point. I wasn't trying to start a chat with my buddies about whether we liked PPSC or not during the old days.

I wanted the kind of open, consultative review that was initially promised when PPSC was "temporarily" suspended - and which never came to pass. That is what has been openly shot down and denied by both ATC and now Valis.

There is something to be said for a scoring system that discourages draws. While PPSC does this, it is only as a side effect of how much it encourages throwing games. I'm sure a system could be devised that has fewer draws than WTA but doesn't actively encourage throwing games.

"PPSC upon a draw" — abgemacht

See, this annoys me. So many people are against PPSC when they don't know what it did. As I said in the other thread:
"PPSC was the default webDiplomacy points scoring system for years. It followed rulebook rules in that points were divided evenly between players in the event of a draw; a winner would claim 9/17 of the pot and losers would claim a proportion of points based on their SC-count at the end of the game (points per supply center)."

PPSC always gives a points incentive to go for the win. Small Great Powers always have a points incentive to go for a draw. PPSC does not result in players throwing games: poor diplomacy does.

Then I guess we have a lot of poor diplomacy players. Anyway, I think we're way off topic. Thanks for all your hard work ATC! My favourite new feature was move previews.

PPSC in no way follows the end conditions of the game as stated by the rules for either solos or draws. Maybe you don't care about that and that's fine, but don't try to argue that PPSC followed the rules as a reason to keep it around.

@JECE, why should anyone left on a board get credit for giving up a solo?

JECE, if a large power can't solo, but another large power can, it's in the former's interests to give the solo to the latter in a PPSC system unless a two-way is possible. That's no good.

dont you hate it when ghug makes valid points, #fuckghug

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1432961#1432961

LeonWalras: I tried not to engage for as long as I could . . .

abgemacht: "PPSC in no way follows the end conditions of the game as stated by the rules for either solos or draws." 'Or draws', really? How so?

ssorenn: Because they didn't die – and maybe didn't have any blame for the solo because they joined the game while it was in progress.

ghug: Maybe I have to see it to believe it, but any large power should be able to win in its own right or whittle down the draw. I wonder if there is a way to graph what you're talking about with the SC-count of a large loser and PPSC point incentives.

CommanderByron: Thanks.

It's pretty simple, JECE. In PPSC, the best results for you, in order, are solo, two-way, > 11 center survive, three-way, > 8 center survive, four-way, etc. In any other system, the best results for you are solo, good draw, worse draw, worst draw, survive/defeat. It removes any negotiating power small powers have over big powers.

@JECE

I forgot that PPSC was only PPSC during a solo. Mean culpa, but that really makes the system even worse, imho.

*Mea culpa

What a silly phrase to typo.

Ok Bo Sox sort of started the PPSC thing in this thread, and I had to buy in to that here, but CommanderByron has started a separate ppsc discussion thread, so let's take that discussion to that thread, and keep this one for telling funny stories about ATC & thanking him