I'm hearing the arguments, but I have to say that if I want dreadlocks, I'm getting dreadlocks and I don't think anyone is helped by people who don't wear dreadlocks because they think 'black people wouldn't like that'. That's political correctness for the sake of showing acceptance for something that shouldn't be a problem to begin with. If you take that logic even further (and why wouldn't you, following this logic) you'd get some really weird implications.

Looking up the cultural background on dreadlocks turns up some interesting and varied material.

''White people shouldn't wear dreadlocks' is just about as offensive as 'black people can't sit in the front of a bus'.

In my opinion, a better analogue would be 'white people can't sit in the back of a bus'. Apart from being arbitrary, it's not directly offensive to black people since they can sit anywhere they want. It does force white people to 'recognise' a division based on race, however, and therefore recognise racism itself.

As an American of Irish decent I find the wearing of green and mocking of Irish culture by black peoples awfully insulting. I make it a point to point out this hypocrisy every chance I get on st. Patrick's day. Also as an American of German decent I find the worship of any Protestant religion insulting as it was my ancestry which wrote notes on the door. Actually I find the use of the name Martin Luther especially insulting since the original Martin Luther was a German man. The list goes on, but here we are. Now I understand some arguments about cultural appropriation; namely situations where a culture is being mocked in doing so; black face, st.patricks day, or dressing as an "Indian" when you play Cowboys and indians. But I also understand that as people we mimic due to flattery or respect. A white person wearing dreadlocks is stating that he appreciates the culture it came from and likes the look; he may even be Rastafarian (since this is a religion he could convert). I grew up in a very ethnically diverse city, I found that my favorite food has grown to be Hispanic foods especially those from Caribbean islands such as Puerto Rico and Cuba. I like these foods so much that I try my hand at making them, but I don't see this mimicry as anything more than my fond taste for a different culture. My wanting to make the food of the culture is inherently forced me to learn more about the culture and appreciate it more. None of my friends who are of Hispanic descent ever have felt I was racist because I wanted to make yellow rice with lentils and roast pork shoulder. I think that sometimes these conversations get out of hand and people are looking for the worst in each other rather than looking at the reality that emulation is the biggest sign of respect.

As long as you look decent, right?

What's up with native English speakers getting things wrong lately?

Native English speakers often make spelling mistakes and typos. I know I do. It doesn't help that it is impossible to edit posts in this forum after they have been posted.

Ora is at least trying to respond to seriously Spyman but I'm not convinced you or anybody else can be bothered to respond to his well reasoned posts.

I mean the responses to Ora are on the level of why don't we have a white history month. It's embarrassing.

Putin I actually complemented Ora on his posts. I do think he has presented as strong a case as can be expected for such an absurd proposition. He has done a better job than most other writings I have found on the net.

Besides I have responded, and you or ora are welcome to reply to my own points.

Here is a summary if you like. Fee free to respond.

White people copy black people and black people copy white people. Everyone copies, with a few modifications along the way. And its a good thing, isn't it?

Can a group claim moral ownership of a hairstyle? It seems absurd to be me.

Also why lump all black people together? Why do "they" own the hairstyle collectively?

Should African American culture be criticized for appropriating Jamaican culture?

With respect to dreadlocks, how does it hurt black culture?

Why do you say that white people with dreads is mocking african american culture?

"I mean the responses to Ora are on the level of why don't we have a white history month. It's embarrassing."

It seems that false equivalency is in fact a left-wing pastime.

By the way Putin, when did you start believing that white people wearing dreadlocks was racist?

"I mean the responses to Ora are on the level of why don't we have a white history month."

Nothing I have written is remotely analogous to that. You haven't even attempted to respond to my arguments.

@"r thing that comes to mind is that dreads for African Americans and European Americans alike are just an arbitrary fashion choice"

True, but that doesn't prevent something from being racist or otherwise problematic. So not really relevat.

@"White people copy black people and black people copy white people. Everyone copies, with a few modifications along the way. And its a good thing, isn't it?"

Yes, but as i stated, when you feel forced to assimulate, you do not get a choice to copy white people, you are forced to give up your culture in order to survve.

Which is, i think, a bug part of the why of this being an issue.

@"Can a group claim moral ownership of a hairstyle? It seems absurd to be me."

Perhaps not, but then copyright laws were mot a thing before the current century, and tonnes of older works (like, say, the bible) are public domain, so anyone can do whatever bible based fan-fic they want.

Would it infact be ok to treat the bible without respect while you force actual christians to read the Koran as a matter of assimulation? Is it ok for the Christians to claim ownership of the bible despite it beig out of copyright?

Or does public domain actual have its limits when it comes to treating other cultures with respect? (Or a least should it?) NB here i am proposing that dreads are in the public domain.

@"Also why lump all black people together? Why do "they" own the hairstyle collectively?"

I don't it is my place to criticise my own people first. I am fully aware that there is more genetic diversity inside africa than outside, so more types of people there than anywhere else (if we can indeed reduce people to types) But i'm not in the position of telling other black people how to experience their racial identity. Maybe some black people don't want to wear dreads, maybe it is not part of their cultural heritage, but it is not really my place to tell them.

You said your black friends had made this comment, and honestly, you could ask them. Do they all wear dreads? Is the fact that black hair tends to be structurally different (kinky) and dreading much easier at all relevant to this cultural practice? There are lts of relevant questions. But the main one is whether harm is done to them by racialisation. So if all black people have this in common that is reason enough to lump them together.

Likewise, it could perhaps be less offensive for an Apache to done Lakota dress, than a white person doing the same.

@"Should African American culture be criticized for appropriating Jamaican culture?"

If it is doing damage. In which case, i will repeat, it is not my position to judge. Are there Jamacians who have said this to black people? Is the damage the same? If it comes down to inequalities over assimulation, then it is not the same as white people with that freedom of choice.

@"With respect to dreadlocks, how does it hurt black culture?

Why do you say that white people with dreads is mocking african american culture?"

I didn't, i believe your black friends brought this one up. If it is part of a systematic abuse of their culture, which they feel forced to give up for survival, then you are indirectly taking part in this system.

I think this is a big part of it, on an individual level you may not be doing any damage, you may personally be very respectful, and show no racism. But when you are seen as being disrespectful by default, when you take part in a system, when the average person of colour on the street will avoid getting to know you because they assume (rightly) that you are not sensitive to these kinds of issues (which you say yourself black frieds of yours brought up, you are not being sensitive to their opinions) Then you controbute to the problem in a secondary manner.

Is the lack of equality enough? Will all people of colour assume you're an asshole for wearing dreads? Or will it just be a small warning sign that you're not going listen when they bring up issues of a cultural nature? I don't know.

I think the bigger problem is where people feel the need to assimulate instead of building a more tolerant society. But by going ahead and exercising your privilege to wear dreads and dress up in ther culture (without passing as non-white, and thus not seeing any of the downsides) you are not really helping the situation. And you make yourself out as one of the people 'not on their side'.

Here is another white person talking about why they stopped wearing dreads: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/white-feminist-with-dreadlocks/

Power relations is what makes the difference

"But can you honestly say that a white american, and a native american wearing traditional dress/hair styles/culturally appropriate for them whatever, would be treated equally?"

I agree that the eradication of Native American culture is tragic. However, one can hardly say that African Americans are being forced to assimilate or that African culture is endangered. If anything is being endangered, it's the conservative way of life, but that's another topic for another day. African Americans are the most distinctive racial group in the US. Rap has spread like wildfire and displaced traditional music. Ebonics is considered a "dialect". Ghetto culture is glorified on the big screens. How anyone can say that African American culture is being threatened is beyond me. If anything, its influence far exceeds the actual black population. And if all that were not true, dreads would still be safely preserved in Africa.

"Power relations is what makes the difference"

See the thread where I can't be racist because I'm not white.

Firstly Ora thank very much for exploring this topic with me. Someone has to play the devils advocate, and I think you doing a good job making your case (as good as can be expected). That said, I don't agree...

>>"True, but that doesn't prevent something from being racist or otherwise problematic. So not really relevant."

But it hasn't been established that is actually racist. Just become someone makes a claim doesn't necessarily make it so.

>>"Yes, but as i stated, when you feel forced to assimilate, you do not get a choice to copy white people, you are forced to give up your culture in order to survive."

This nothing to do with whether or not white people wearing dreads is racist.

>>"Is it ok for the Christians to claim ownership of the bible despite it beig out of copyright?"

This is a faulty analogy. We are born with hair on our heads. A hairstyle is in no way analogous the Bible.

But if someone wants to take the Bible as a starting point for a new religion I have personally thing that is okay. The Mormons have done, it and so have the Rastafarians. And no doubt the Bible will continue to be the seed for new religious ideas.


>>"You said your black friends had made this comment, and honestly, you could ask them. "

I did not say that my "black friends had made this comment. I said someone told me that it was now a new claim that it is racist. Dreads have been popular amongst white people since the 1990s (sure a few before then, but that is when it really took off), and yet until recently (almost) no one had a problem with it.

I have been on youtube and while there are some white and black people who maintain that white people are not entitled to wear dreads, there are plenty of black people who agree that this is ridiculous. The chief complaint is that it promotes segregation.

>>"If it is part of a systematic abuse of their culture, which they feel forced to give up for survival, then you are indirectly taking part in this system."

Once begging the question. You have not established that white people wearing dreads is abuse of anything.

>>"But by going ahead and exercising your privilege to wear dreads and dress up in ther culture (without passing as non-white, and thus not seeing any of the downsides) you are not really helping the situation."

There you go again. Begging the question. You need to first establish that black people have exclusive rights to the hairstyle. You have not done this.

So far the principle seems to be this: Cultural (mis)appropriation is when a stronger culture adopts something from a weaker culture.

Thus the stronger culture should not borrow ideas from weaker cultures, but it is okay for weaker cultures to borrow from stronger cultures.

I think that the principle is absurd.

If you put two cultures in contact with each other, ideas will be exchanged. It is a natural (mostly unconscious) process and objecting to it is like objecting to the laws of physics. Humans beings are hard wired to copy other human beings.

Also if we apply this principle and say therefore white people may not wear dreads, where does it end.

Does not the principle apply equally to Blue music. Was it racist for Eric Clapton to play the blues. Is it racist for any of us to listen to blues music or hip hop?

Does not principle imply that cultures must segregated? Where does it begin and end.

And ultimately that is what this thread is about. When is it okay to be influenced by another culture.

@"i agree that the eradication of Native American culture is tragic."

Would you agree that white people mis-using their culture adds insult to injury?

Would you agree something about them having a right to their culture? (In the sense i discussed in my previous post referig to public domain, etc.)

Your initial so called compliment claimed he was being a devils advocate so you're not even taking him seriously, so excuse me if I'm not impressed.

False equivalency again. African American culture is not being eradicated, but I know it's more convenient to just ignore the rest of my post.

Here is another white person talking about why they stopped wearing dreads: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/white-feminist-with-dreadlocks/

Thanks for sharing Ora. If you would like a good laugh read this confession...

https://shaynastock.com/2014/01/29/700/

The poor girl. It really reminds me of the way some Christians flagellate themselves to prove how devout they are.

This ultra-political correctness occupies the same role within modern culture that Christian guilt used to play.

Claims like "we are all racist" are just like "we are all sinners before God". White privilege is the new "original sin".

Here is a snippet from this girl's confession:

"A case could be made that my dreadlocks were an important symbol of my spiritual and political values. But this story wasn’t sitting quite right – it felt more like a creative, reactionary mash-up of partial truths than a genuine recollection of my own inner drive to be dreaded.

If I am being fully honest with myself, I acknowledge that one of my main motivations was aesthetics. I’d long admired how locks looked on other people before making the decision to grow them myself. To me, they represented anti-authoritarian and counter-culture politics, and I liked the edgy, creative, earthy image they helped me construct of myself. I didn’t associate this with fetishizing Black/Rasta culture, or recognize the implicit racism in these motivations, until the aforementioned facebook conversation pointed it out."

"Your initial so called compliment claimed he was being a devils advocate so you're not even taking him seriously, so excuse me if I'm not impressed."

Ora himself admitted in his opening post that he had never given the dreadlocked thing a thought before. And at the mere mention of it being some new politically correct thing, he is instantly converted to the notion (within the hour)...

Come off it. Ora is exercising his creative intellectual skills. Maybe he has become converted but when he made his first replies, he must surely have been adopting a position from which to explore the topic.

"I didn’t associate this with fetishizing Black/Rasta culture, or recognize the implicit racism in these motivations, until the aforementioned facebook conversation pointed it out."

See, this is how conditioned to conformity liberals are. Someone on facebook said something is racist, and therefore it must be, and I should make a drama out of it.

"See the thread where I can't be racist because I'm not white."

Lol. I'll say it again for the people in the back:

POWER RELATIONS IS WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE

I don't want to get too involved in this post, but just follow these simple steps if you want to be enlightened.

1. Go to Google Images
2. Google "professional hairstyles" (take a look at the ethnicity of the images protrayed
3. Google "unprofessional hairstyles" (again, take a look at the ethnicities)

African Americans *are* forced to assimilate into western culture. A lot of schools, jobs, and social events require African Americans to. I understand that most of the people here aren't black but come on.

Alright that was it, Yoyo out.

Lol. I'll say it again for the people in the back:

I CAN'T BE RACIST BECAUSE I'M YELLOW.

So Thucy how do we apply this principle:

Is it okay for white people to wear dreads?

Is it okay for white people to listen to blues or hip hop music?

Is it okay for white people to play blue or hip hop music? Or Jazz?

I assume you are okay with jazz, right? What makes dreads different?

Does the principle only apply to skin colour or can the principle be applied to people with the same skin colour but otherwise separate cultures. For example if we say that African American culture is more powerful than Jamaican culture the according to the principle it would not be okay for African Americans to adopt elements of Jamaican culture.