And no, wjess, Octavious didn't say the UK has a problem with swords, merely a love for them.

They hold an iconic place in British culture.

@orathaic: Yes, it's a word that means a lot of different things depending to different people. This can be unhelpful.

@orathaic @Octavious:

Fair enough, the word "problem" was not used. But to say that the American "love" of guns is "odd" touches on the problem that America has with gun ownership. In this regard, I don't agree, and think it is quite reasonable to point out, that the American relationship with guns cannot and should not be equated in an over-simplified way to Britain's historical and cultural relationship to swords.

Ireland = divided

Can anyone think of a word for Belgium?

Ireland = oppressed

Oppressed? By whom?

Over simplified in what sense? Your great American heroes and rebels all have guns. I can't recall many offhand, but there's the chap with the fox on his head, the wild west types, the Alamo people, and their creation story is all about men holding muskets and firing shots heard around the world and so forth.

What is the name of that Yank with the fox on his head?

davey crockett or daniel boon has raccoon skins on their heads.

That's the chap!

Hear the trumpets hear the pipers...

@Octavious: I'll repeat, then, "where I disagree with you is the suggestion that this equates in any way to [the] modern gun problem [in America]. We simply don't have that in the UK."

Guns definitely helped create America, Octavious. Unfortunately, our "creation story" is about using guns to overthrow dictators and tyrants....the reality is America was created by using guns to murder natives and slaughter wildlife.

I thought this thread was about Bush's suggestion that American = gun, not just a rant about US gun crime.

see: woles, passenger pigeons, bison, andrew jackson, wounded knee etc etc etc. This is the true legacy of guns in America, not this fantasy about revolution and sticking it to the brits. the american revolution was won because it was freaking expensive for the british empire to suppress an entire contient, and the war of 1812 was about fish.

it is about both of those things....the are rather related.

Bush's tweet of a handgun is infuriating to me because a handgun is nothing more than a tool for killing a human. it is ineffective for any form of recreational hunting. yay for America, we all have the ability to murder each other.

The natives, of course, being far more civilised as they enjoyed killing each other with bows and axes. I've often been confused by the modern American insistence on elevating the Indians to some kind of spiritual peaceloving perfection just because they were less skilled at killing their fellow man than the immigrants.

natives were and are human people just like anyone else @ Octavious but I don't think genocide is something that can be shrugged off. Yes, native americans killed each other, but european settlers and their subsequent government engaged in a systematic elimination of cultures and people. any oppressed and murdered people should be held up as an example worth remembering and atoning for, regardless of their flaws.

anytime a people are oppressed, they are righteous and special. anyone who oppresses is evil and repugnant. when no one is oppressed/oppressing, then we all just go back to being human. but I have no qualms about having these standards.

Exactly.

The problem is not that colonizers are simply more "skilled at killing", it's the colonial project of superiority that ties with it the planned, systematic elimination of pre-existing people and culture through extermination, that is the problem.

@octavious, oppressed by a paternalistic government, an elite who took charge when the briish left and copied all their practices, who care little for the population unless they are wealthy (ie high status)

There was some change in the mood here when the government 'let' us have a referendum on marriage equality - they didn't get the credit for it, and a large population of people ( especially in working class areas) felt alive, lifted from political apathy for the first time in a generation. And enjoyed sending a message of 'suck it' to the previous powers that be (ie the Catholic Church)

But the current political elite was not overly harmed (well we've a general election in a few weeks, so we'll see how much of the elite manages to hang on...) they were mostly in favour of the referedum, but lack lustre support and campaigning from them shows that most local members accepted the result rather than embracing it.

Great to see people taking action ( going out and canvasing ) in an attempt to improve their country. I fear this election will probe to be an end to thst positive energy... And back to drinking and depressing.

@ ishirkmywork,

It is patently false that handguns cannot be used for hunting, or are ineffective. It is absolutely not only possible but popular. I know people who hunt with handguns. Do a basic google search before making such a sweeping, inaccurate statement.

Native Americans were defending their land against invaders who always wanted more, who always wanted to be seen as superior in culture, religion, and rights.

The "Western" superiority myth pervades in this way: when Europe or North America are attacked by invaders, defending is unchallenged a natural right.

When white people invade other parts of the world, the non-white people defending their land and homes are disrespected, slurred and repudiated.

what do you hunt with them King Cyrus? rats? they are accurate up to like 50 feet.

Not to make excuses for settlers, and the relations with Native Americans is absolutely the number one failing of the United States, but I'm pretty sure everyone, regardless of skin color, subjugates when they invade. They project culture, religion, and rights (or lack thereof). And generally when you invade someone, you don't turn around and treat them as equals.

regardless, I am fairly certain that 9mm pistols are not being mass manufactured for elk hunting.

@KingCyrus: Colonialism is almost entirely accepted as a white European project.*

European in this sense also including America, dating to its European settlers.