There is most definitely a "Western" or "West" culture.

You mean like John Wayne films?

Might as well just call them the white places at that point. That's not what it is - that's another issue entirely. The "West" encompasses more than (Western) Europe and North America. You're excluding Israel, Japan, China, Russia, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Egypt, Brazil, and other industrialized nations around the world.

People are stupid, wjessop. When you say Europe, they'll think France, Germany, England (not the UK), and maybe - *maybe* - Italy. Some people will think Russia. They'll forget Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, Scotland, Turkey, and all the other "progressive" places in Europe. When you say North America, they'll forget that Canada and Mexico (which I would argue is not in the same class as Canada and the US in this discussion anyway) exist.

It's more difficult than you make it, wjessop.

Evidently I've fallen behind on what's politically correct right now.

Statements like "there is most definitely a "Western" or "West" culture." are just not precise as they could or should be, if we're being careful about it.

ND, I know what you want to mean -- but the words aren't really fit for purpose.

And referring to "West" implies and reinforces an unhelpful binary -- a binary that means we're still dealing with the problems like that of last night in Paris.

"The "West" encompasses more than (Western) Europe and North America. You're excluding Israel, Japan, China, Russia, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Egypt, Brazil, and other industrialized nations around the world."

1) I, personally, am not excluding anything -- when Hall of Mandos clarified what he meant by "west" he stated that he meant Americans and Europeans. That's his definition, not mine.

2) What you're raising in the quote above, and what the example from Hall of Mandos shows us, is that the problem with the term "the West" is that it is not clear or precise enough -- it means lots of different things to lots of different people.

It is my belief that third party, non-state actors, are attacking anyone who does not conform with their world beliefs whether that is the "West" or non radicals within their own culture. I don't find it unhelpful to state what is a fact.

"It's more difficult than you make it, wjessop."

bo, (or b o_sox48, if I must), it's more difficult and that's exactly why I'm saying "West" is reductive and inappropriate.

I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing.

uhhh

@bo: The problem here is evident, when you're using the word "West" to refer to a common economic link of countries, and ND is using the word "West" to refer to a culturally homogenous group.

Then come up with something precise, wjessop. Criticism without a solution is fairly useless. I don't want to write a paragraph-long list of nations and places whenever I want to discuss what you and I ambiguously know as the "West."

I don't disagree with you. Most categorizations are pretty terrible in general.

Historically, the word "West" certainly never included places that you mention like Brazil, South Africa, Egypt, Australia and Israel -- these are all former colonies.

The 'West' historically referred to places of empire; romantic view of civilization's cradle in Rome and Athens, set against Persia, and then modern European empires set against the Arabs, India, China, etc.

It's an evolving term with manifold meaning.

This is a horrible time to quibble about terminology. At this point we know nothing of the Paris attackers. The only clear thing is that a lot of people have been hurt today.

"Then come up with something precise, wjessop. Criticism without a solution is fairly useless."

Jesus, are you being contrary for the sake of argument? We're on the same side.

I already did give a suggestion -- in relation to Hall of Mandos, for example, if he means North America and Europe specifically then it would be much better to say this than to use the murky term "the West".

Wjessop's historical definition is accurate.

@Hapapop: I'd disagree -- we need to stop defining our world with unhelpful, anachronistic terms that emphasise division and stereotype.

This is basic stuff. Read Edward Said, Orientalism, it's great.

Hapapop: One of the early reports I saw linked it to ISIS/ISIL whatever they are called. We will see as the investigation progresses because day 1 reports can sometimes be inaccurate.

Stupid point wjessop, but on the other hand look at how bo-sux creates an argument out of nothing. When he's not busy making this atrocity all about him.

France is the best country in the world and this is sooo far beyond the pale of what is acceptable. There needs to be big changes.

No, not a "stupid point", fiedler -- but typical of you to wade in to a discussion with unjustified and unsubstantiated insults.

Said is a pretty shoddy historian honestly. I wouldn't recommend it and I have read his so-called landmark monograph: Orientalism.

It is a stupid point. Everyone knows what the west means, so why are you trying to use this tragedy to 'show how clever you are'. A bit sad.

There is some merits to the case but the methodology and his case can be incoherent at times. That is my specific issue with it by the way, but I feel that this is getting off the point.

Just a little bit.

I'm not trying to do that ...and it's clear that everyone does not know what the west means : because we've already had 3 different definitions for what "the West" means in this thread, from Hall of Mandos, bo, and ND.

What does "the West" mean for you, fiedler?

@ND. That's really my point. Early reports are frequently just rumour.
@Wjessop. Terms frequently mean different things to groups. As long as there is consensus of those in the conversation it doesn't matter. E.g. Many N. Americans find Oriental offensive, preferring the term Asian. Yet in Hawaii (a state which is 85% East Asian descendants) it is a perfectly acceptable term. And in the British isles, Asian generally refers to South Asians.

@Hapapop: Exactly.

How the heck does the term "the west" and "western culture" emphasize division and stereotype wjessop?

@Flum / Fluminator: I will happily answer your question with my view -- though it already seems like you're making a judgement rather than earnestly seeking my viewpoint, when you phrase your question with "how the heck".