JMO, so you would refuse service to someone because of personal convictions?

@KingCyrus, You know what I mean.

What I am trying to say (that hopefully won't get misinterpreted) is that there is always a compromise. It doesn't mean you or the other person is happy about it, but both sides are treated justly.

Personal convictions is what this boils down to. You don't want to support the KKK, or ISIS, or whatever. Great. Neither do I. Now, apparently some people don't want to support a gay wedding. Great. All power to them. Why do you get exemptions for what you believe in, and others don't?

And also, if you are really concerned by what the forum has to say, why do you keep trying to shoot us down? Isn't that infringing on my right to voice my opinion?

Oh yeah, I think the baker should have referred them to someone else. But, under these circumstances, it is likely she still would be sued.

Oh spare me. Having an opinion is repressing you? I am interested in dialogue. I am playing devil's advocate, because I honestly don't know how I feel about this.

You didn't ask if it was illegal. I have no idea of the legality of baking a cake, nor do I care.

You want to be true to your religion? Then how about listening when Jesus says not to judge. How about listening when the Bible says Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, that everyone is a sinner. How dare you or anyone else think you have the moral high ground to judge another person on the same level as your God. The arrogance is astounding and pitiful.

Um, in case you haven't noticed, I am not a baker who refused to bake a cake, or a pastor who refused to perform a wedding. I am someone interested in this law, because it might be enacted in my state.

Also, this isn't about whether someone is "good" at their religion. It is about whether people can be forced to act against their beliefs, however they come about them. You, jmo, have already said you wouldn't bake a cake for the KKK because it was against your beliefs. I don't care how you get those beliefs, so why do you care how other people object?

"Personal convictions is what this boils down to. You don't want to support the KKK, or ISIS, or whatever. Great. Neither do I. Now, apparently some people don't want to support a gay wedding. Great. All power to them. Why do you get exemptions for what you believe in, and others don't?"

But to answer your question. I would probably call the police on someone who wanted a picture of Black people being lynched and killed on suspicion of their intent to do harm to another human.

ISIS I'd call the cops right away as supporting a terrorist organization that kills people is illegal.

I don't know how else to explain this to you. Gay people are not killing or harming anyone else. KKK and ISIS are.

So what I believe in is not doing harm to another human being. What religious supports of this support is doing emotional harm and discriminating against other humans. Mine is okay because it doesn't hurt anyone else. Your's is not okay because you are harming someone who has done you no harm and has towards you no ill will.

Dammit jmo, I thought we all agreed to keep ISIS out of this

I am sure if a KKK member approached you to bake their cake, they would have no ill will towards you. And they don't have to have the intent of killing someone to want a lynch cake.

You don't want to support them because they might harm someone. This is YOUR belief system, which most people, including myself, would agree with. But don't you see? YOUR beliefs. You want YOUR beliefs to be legal. You want to be able to refuse service to the KKK, Black Panther, what have you. Even if they aren't doing anything illegal. Because you disagree with what they are doing on a moral or ethical level. HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT? Unless you are so arrogant as to say your morality is superior to the baker in question?

I would not refuse them if their cake was not about harming others. That is where we differ.

Once again, your belief system. Understand that they would sue the pants off of you and win.

They would not win, because making threats against people or groups of people is illegal.

"I really am waiting for an argument that boils down to anything other then "a book tells me I can be a fucktard to people because they don't think the same way I do"."

So if I understand your right JMO, if people think one way and it is different than you, then they are "fucktards" but if they think like you they are ok?

Let's not be so arrogant as to think that our beliefs are the only ones people can have.

Please note that this side discussion is irrelevant since you still cannot answer my question about the potential harm like the 2nd situation I provided about the Dentist where the harm in discrimination was not immediately clear, but would still end if a death.

Why is it making threats? A KKK birthday party cake isn't making threats. Not like they even invite black people to see it anyway.

And you're right, they probably would lose, because the law wasn't being applied equally.

Actually no, JMO, I did say that this law should be amended so that their is an exception in cases of danger. No one is going to die over not getting their preferred wedding cake baker.

"So if I understand your right JMO, if people think one way and it is different than you, then they are "fucktards" but if they think like you they are ok?

Let's not be so arrogant as to think that our beliefs are the only ones people can have."

Point 1. Wrong, go back, reread what that carefully a few times until you understand. Then come back and try again.

Point 2. I'm not the one arguing in favor of a law that would let me discriminate against people who think differently then me.

A jewish baker should have to bake a cake and put a swastika on top. Since the swastika isnt actually harming any one and isnt threatening anyone.

Whose raising their hand now?

Exactly Sandman

Lol, this is really funny to me, that the only comparisons you guys can make are comparisons between 2 people standing together, and the symbols of groups of mass murderers.

The terrifying part is that you actually think you sound intelligent. I'm done with this conversation. I think I got my point across that you cannot come up with any counter argument that demonstrates an acceptable situation with discrimination against anyone who is not doing another human harm.

And you can't come up with a solid reason why your personal beliefs should be honored in this, and other's shouldn't be.

I think it is really funny that you cant have a civilized debate without someone stooping to such a level as to call people names. And that the guy who did it this time is the mod.

I actually agree that they should have baked the cake, but that this is a free country and the laws shouldnt require me to do anything I dont want to as long as i am not harming someone else.

But you seem determined to attack other people if they believe different than you.

Mods are humans too. They are entitled to be douches on occasion too.

As I said, this comes down to beliefs. Most people think that others should respect their beliefs. When it comes down to others' though, then it depends on how closely they resemble their own.

Lets say, hypothetically, that the premise of this is not unconstitutional so long as it causes nobody harm.

Well, there are two types of harm: personal (as jmo was describing) and material

So that means a plumber cannot refuse service to a gay couple, since him not doing the work could lead to extra damage in the house. It means that the top lawyer in a county cannot refuse service to anyone based on religious reasons, as it could cause them material harm by decreasing their chances of winning the case. It means that landscapers cannot refuse service, because it could potentially lower the property value of the house/business.

The list for material damages would go on and on and on....to the point where there would be so many loops and exclusions to this law that its essentially worthless.

Would material harm be covered by this though? I am all for making sure this law can in no way cause personal harm. But material? Is finding another baker really that big of a deal?