Dude, Poland can wage war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in both cases there is no such thing as "independent of the US" in Iraq and Afghanistan in both cases.
As far as I know it was a joint operation, so nothing weird about requesting air support from a country that has the two biggest air forces. Nevertheless, recently it was France that was leading every international European intervention.

While I might ignore the military spending size, you surely live in 20th century. First of all European army would not need the ability to go to Iraq because it wouldn't go there. It would be exactly about going to Mali, Chad, Ukraine or the Balkans - or defending its own territory. When was the last time submarines proved useful? It's not that kind of warfare anymore, now it's hybrid war - just like in Ukraine.
France is needed for military reasons, Germany for diplomatic, all else can be done by joining the forces of the other 25 countries.

@Octavious, when was the last time NATO sent troops, ANYWHERE? (as in an operation)

@CB once more (the Dude,... was @CB as well)
It seems to me your missing the point. This project isn't: let's take the armies of the countries, mix it up and voila, we have European army in like a year.
The target is that there would be one unified armies and this project would take decades, and what you are missing is this:
In a decade Europe can do and build a much stronger army then it would ever do with Britain, because the British have proven over and over again that any integration process involving them is just impossible. That's why they are not in Eurozone, that's why they are not in Schengen, that's why in fact countries like Norway or Switzerland are in fact much more in EU (they are officially not) than UK is. Of course, it would be nice to have UK military, but it would be also nice to have US military or Chinese manpower. But surely neither of that is worth basically preventing any integration in a program that would be all about integration

@Octavious, as in actual troops, not airstrikes etc.

@yassem:
Again, I'm talking about drafting. Send the pro's, send the volunteers. If that doesn't do the trick, clearly we have a better shot under Putin or whatever.

To respond to your post though, which seems to ignore the drafting part:

I am Dutch.
You expect too much from our fellow Europeans I fear. There's just lots of ignorance and there's no way every European can name every European country. Much like there's no way every American can name every state, although presumably they actually learn all of them at some point at school?

You're right about my government having agreed to an alliance. So? I was still talking about drafting. I will not be drafted.

I did say in any *realistic* situation. In your unrealistic hypothetical it's.. Well it doesn't deserve a reaction does it?

In any *realistic* situation in which I would needlessly and forcefully be drafted, I would opt towards trying to stop the lunatics so a government that actually values human life and opts against futile resistance can take its place, yes. Anything to save as many people as possible from a pointless death. In any *realistic* situation, we provoked it.

I don't care about countrymen, I care about people. That's why I opt against war. I'm not so concerned with 'big bad communism' or something, much more so with a war that is so catastrophic that people have to be drafted.

Also, I lol every time I'm called Stephanie22.

@yassem I'd be curious to see work done in Polish, Spanish or Italian at the European level… The "working languages" are German, French and English, wherein French is mostly used by the European Civil Service and English for political negotiations, while German trails a little bit behind but is quite common among lobbyists and Parliamentarians.

@Stephanie22 (I'm gonna keep that up because Stephanie seems suitable for a pacifist)
Who the fuck is being drafted in Europe? Honestly, drafts seem like the absolutely least problem here, not to mention that European Army would surely even decrese the chance of being drafted.
Ok, maybe I have been evaluating the country-naming by my standards, as I can name both all the countries of EU (we had a test on it in middle-school) and the states of US. Nevertheless, I honestly believe that if there is any European that has never HEARD about any of the 28 countries there must be something extremely, extremely wrong with him.
As for the rest, oh my god Stephanie, your pacifist crap makes it near impossible to take this seriously, and as no-one is ever going to draft you unless it's exactly the scenario I described above, you sleep tight.

@X3n0n, where are you taking that information? Half of my family is working in European Commission (trade, health and competition and they all have been saying that those are the 6 languages they encounter in they work on a daily basis. But I am curious to hear where you get your informations, because tbh mine is quite unofficial.

We seem to agree mostly, it's just a little sad that it takes you a couple of posts to understand that I was merely talking about drafting I suppose.

Not a pacifist. Just a lover of peace. Sue me.

And Stephanie, just out of curiosity let's do a thought experiment - your mind is sent miraculously back in time into a body of a dutch soldier in Srebrenica in 1995 and you know what would happen. But hey, this time the dutch aren't massive pussies and decide to actually protect the village. You would drop your gun and say you don't fight?

@yassem

I believe Afghanistan is the most well known in recent years, and Libya (although that was indeed mostly airstrikes). In terms of current operations I think Kosovo peace keeping is still going on, as are anti piracy operations.

Well Drafting is possibly soon becoming a reality, as I stated. I know that the Lithuanian Government are strongly considering drafting (As I'd be personally affected), and I'm sure other Eastern European countries are also doing the same.
Russia is not to be underestimated. It's not good having the logic of, oh it's not our war... Because if you wait long enough, it will be your war to fight.

@Octavious,
Libya was only airstrikes. Not a single soldier was sent to fight there.
Afghanistan was a full on war, it was neither intervention, nor peacekeeping.
yes, Kosovo would be actually a good example, but that seems to be the only example throughout the whole history of the treaty, and one could argue that is only a continuation of previous operations in Balkans, which once again, were full on wars.
However, I would love to see NATO trying to intervene in a hybrid war like Ukraine, Moldova or Georgia without turning it into a open war.

@Mintyboy4, really? As in, drafting to a regular army, not as a part of training? That would be something very unusual in Europe, but I guess looking at Ukraine and the power of Lithuanian army that is justified. But yes, that kind of project would solve that kind of problems exactly, a country of 3M just cannot create and miantain an efficient army on its own.

If I were a soldier, I'd fight. Hell, if I were a civilian who happened to be there, I would fight. I would absolutely not become a soldier though.

@Mintyboy4: I'd say there are three types of things that will make a man fight hard and effective: a love for battle, a hate towards the enemy and out of true desperation (personal or national). The first two types will volunteer if the enemy attacks you. The third type will not serve you very well when you drop them on foreign ground and they've got a better shot deserting.

To clarify:
Without hesitation, I would die for my beliefs. I would not kill for them.

If only the rest of the world felt the same way..

So you wouldn't kill a single Serb in Srebrenica?

And I think that starting from 1945 not a single time has a drafted European soldier has been sent anywhere. It doesn't look like it's gonna change.

Not to mention, hell, I would fight for Lithuania, Malta or Spain just as hard as I would for Poland, because I'm European. I'm extremely patriotic, bordering on nationalistic about Europe, but seems like you're not, are you?

"Without hesitation, I would die for my beliefs. I would not kill for them."

This is why pacifists are so few in number.

I agree entirely with Steephie here. Also, yassem, why do you think a) standing up for your personal beliefs is feminine and b) why are you using this as an insult?

@yassem You could ask them in what ways they encounter these languages. Ofc, everyone is reading from more than just the working languages. In Bruxelles it is quite common to use 4 to 5 languages on a daily bases and even in the same conversation. Still, actual working communication (emails, meetings, phone calls from DG to DG or within DGs) is pretty much limited to the three mentioned above. This is eg. reflected here:

http://ec.europa.eu/stages/information/faq_en.htm

Anyways, I'm actually curious about the other three languages you mentioned.

It's drafting for training, not full on Army. But this is still precautionary with no invasion of Lithuania started yet. Should an invasion start, it may well be for full army, who knows what will happen a couple of months down the line. Nobody denies, if Ukraine falls, the Baltics are next. But A recent Poll showed that 75% of the population would fight for the country if asked to. But a country of 3m can only do so much.

@Mendax
a) I don't think standing up for personal believes is feminine, and even if it were it is absolutely not an insult in itself
b) I believe being pacifist is a bit feminine, as opposed to war and military being generally masculine. In almost every country in the world the role of women is very small (go Israel!) and, well, maybe it's a gender generalization but in general women are less likely to pick a fight etc., so there is reason behind association between being pacifist and feminine
c) While being feminine is in absolutely no way an insult, "pacifist" (or whatever Stephanie call himself) is. I believe every war is bad too, but I also believe that there are cases where you need to fight for peace. And "let them fight, but not me" is not fighting for one's beliefs, it's bordering on being a coward.

@Mintyboy4, well, a drafting in case of invasion is quite justified. Just as Ukraine is drafting right now. And drafting for training is something very good - later on it might be too late. Poland seized drafting for training a couple of years ago but this year (probably for the same reasons as Lithuania) they started doing voluntary training (like the previous, draft based, 3 months in barracks etc.) and it is so popular there are actually no places left for this summer.

Don't underestimate 3m, it's about the population of Finland in 1939, Russia invaded with 1m soldiers and yet the Finns put up a hell of a fight. But those were different, more simple times.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-31619553

It would be helpful if European governments won't continue to cut defence spendings, especially because almost all of them are significantly below the 2% of GDP they all promised to spend on military.

WOAH, I just read my post above "In almost every country in the world the role of women is very small". IN ARMY! In army of course. Shitstorm averted

Heck, I'm an American and I would fight for the freedom of Poland, Lithuania, or Ukraine. Beyond patriotic (which I am) or nationalistic, I believe in freedom. And I would die for mine and others'. And yes, I would kill an aggressor to defend the freedom of myself or others' as well.

+1 to KC