"As far as tunnels go: live in an area where someone has made your own land into a prison, has blocked all flow of goods into it (including essential services) and treats you like dogs and see if you don’t build tunnels to funnel rockets and food and even essential supplies."

That would be an attempt at an excuse for Hamas starting the war, and not, you know, a denial that those tunnels violated Israeli sovereignty which is, in the international definition, an act of war (or do international laws only apply when you wish them to do so?)

"And here’s the thing: Even if there are tunnels,"

There are...miles and miles...all major networks showed them, Hamas admitted to them with pride...why don't you go read an actual news article before blathering on?

"its still not justification for war – its sovereign fucking land."

YES. IT'S SOVEREIGN LAND...ISRAEL'S LAND. By ALL forms of international law, that land is Israel's...that's not even disputed territory we're talking about, the area in question is Israeli land, which is protected by UN laws regarding sovereignty which, again, sorry, are not like a light switch you can turn on and off as is convenient--it applies to Israel and Hamas *equally.*

Oh, and by the way? No one's answered the actual topic question yet...

If you all (save Jamiet) care so much...where are those donations?

Where are the donors that supposedly cared so much about Palestinians?

Do you only care when it's the kind of "care" you can give from the comfort of a chair and and laptop with a bag of Doritos close by?

Why provide a real answer when we can call you a facist for no good reason?

It's quite simple for me. Gaza is nowhere near the top of my list of priorities. Never has been, never pretended otherwise.

@ Obiwanobiwan: "Given that all three wars in the last eight years were started by Hamas"

Since you keep name-checking me as if I'm the only pro-Palestine voice you'll endorse, or something, let me be very, very clear to everyone. The above claim, which you have made, is bullshit of the highest order.

Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09 was a vicious and unreasonable example of Israeli brutality. It certainly was not started by Hamas. Operation Cast Lead represented the systematic Israeli murder of hundreds of Palestinians, without any reasonable cause. During Cast Lead, around 1,400 Palestinians, mostly civilians, were murdered, against 13 Israeli deaths (and 4 of those 13 were Israeli-on-Israeli deaths in friendly-fire incidents).

Since you're talking about the rebuilding of houses after the latest atrocity, I have to point out that after Cast Lead, the UNHRC appealed to Israel to help re-build the large number of civilian homes destroyed during Cast Lead, and Israel ignored the UN's request.

@ bo_sox48

"Human rights legislation is a real thing ya know Gunfighter..."

I don't want to hear any bitching about 'human rights' from a group of people who brainwash their children with genocidal propaganda and then launch rockets into civilian neighborhoods from schools and hospitals. Likewise, I don't want to hear any bitching about 'human rights' from another group of people who think that dropping incendiary weapons on known civilian targets is an acceptable counterinsurgency tactic.

Both sides have committed innumerable atrocities, to the point where it's almost a moot point as to whether either side has any moral credibility. It's like trying to decide who was more evil between Mao and Stalin.

I reiterate my aforementioned statement that those who fight like barbarians are destined to die like barbarians, and those that indoctrinate their children to fight like barbarians will doom their children to die like barbarians. In the meantime, I will continue to advocate for all third parties to distance themselves from the conflict, because no third party has the capability to fix the problem.

When the Israelis and Palestinians resolve the problem, then I will be the first one to welcome them back to the civilized world. Until then, they can both fuck off.

Did I mention them? I'm talking to you. Encouraging people to kill each other "like barbarians" is a little bit behind-the-times in 2015. We have organizations and policies galore to prevent it and they are yet to be put to good use. Why simply redact on all of the progress we've made instead of pushing for better?

Gaza wouldn't have a shortage of building supplies if Hamas hadn't used so much to build tunnels into Israel with them. Those were for only for the purpose of terrorist attacks into Israel and not economic.

Egypt is currently demolishing homes in the Sinai to block tunnels from the Gaza.

Stoopid thucy. Obiwanobiwan has always been a Nazi deep down. Of course Nazi and Zionist ideology is much the same, so whatever.

@ bo_sox48

"Encouraging people to kill each other "like barbarians" is a little bit behind-the-times in 2015."

I'm not encouraging anyone to kill anyone else. I'm simply noting that they will get no sympathy from me until they decide to stop acting like geopolitical toddlers, and I'm sure as hell not going to be swayed by any bitching about 'human rights' from the very people who are the only ones in a position to help solve the problem.

"We have organizations and policies galore to prevent it and they are yet to be put to good use."

You're right. The fact that the violence has continued unabated despite the efforts of third-party mediators is proof that both sides remain more interested in killing each other than solving the problem.

"Why simply redact on all of the progress we've made instead of pushing for better?"

What 'progress'? Who's 'we'? The violence has been almost non-stop since the 1940s. If they can go a *month* without anybody killing anybody else, then we can talk about progress. I'm not encouraging violence, I'm just advocating AGAINST the rest of the world interfering in the affairs of geopolitical toddlers.

1.) If the rest of the world stopped caring, Israel would blow the whole of Arabia to bits in about 60 seconds. I love Israel but that is not good or right at all.

2.) If you aren't going to be swayed by human rights violations, then curl up in your basement, pull your knees up to your chest, suck your thumb, and stay there.

"Gaza wouldn't have a shortage of building supplies if Hamas hadn't used so much to build tunnels into Israel with them. Those were for only for the purpose of terrorist attacks into Israel and not economic.

Egypt is currently demolishing homes in the Sinai to block tunnels from the Gaza."

THANK YOU........

"If the rest of the world stopped caring, Israel would blow the whole of Arabia to bits in about 60 seconds. I love Israel but that is not good or right at all."

Really? -_- Israel would NOT do that, come on...even if you hate Israeli leadership (which is legitimate and something I agree with), their people wouldn't allow that to happen. The soldiers and people wouldn't do it. They're people, not cartoon monsters.

If absolutely nobody cared, I have no doubt that they would act like cartoon monsters, just as the world's imperial nations didnfor hundreds of years when nobody cared. Why do you think they would simply sit still when they could do what they want to do so badly?

@ bo_sox48

"If the rest of the world stopped caring, Israel would blow the whole of Arabia to bits in about 60 seconds."

That's an exaggeration. Their strategic disposition is still terrible, regardless of how well they did in 1967 or 1973. Besides, Israel could not hope to hold off the entire weight of the Muslim world if it were to provoke a wider Jewish-Muslim conflict. The Israeli leadership knows this.

"If you aren't going to be swayed by human rights violations"

You're not reading what I'm saying. I will not be swayed by human rights violations when the very people who are bitching about human rights violations *are war criminals themselves*. Palestinians (who either actively or tacitly support militants) bitching about human rights are just as hypocritical as a captured SS concentration camp guard bitch about his POW rights being nonexistent in Siberia. Likewise, Israelis who bitch about human rights are just as hypocritical as the aforementioned hypothetical captured Nazi bitching about his Siberian vacation.

In summary, if you want to keep your human rights, THEN DON'T VIOLATE (or support those who violate) the human rights of others.

"If absolutely nobody cared, I have no doubt that they would act like cartoon monsters,"

Israelis - White phosphorous shells on hospitals and schools
Palestinians - Suicide attacks on civilians

Both sides are *already* acting like cartoon monsters and have been acting like cartoon monsters for quite some time.

Back to obi's original point about the 'supporters' of Gaza who are apparently unwilling (or, less likely, unable) to actually donate money to the cause (Jamiet99uk excepted, of course)

I think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an interesting case study in how an issue can transcend the traditional right-left political spectrum. In the United States, for example, Israel is staunchly supported by neoconservatives, left-wing Jewish organizations, and the Christian 'religious right'. Conversely, Palestine is supported by secular liberals, Muslims, and Arabs of all political dispositions. Libertarians and 'old right' Republicans support neither side and advocate American withdrawal from all geopolitical discourse related to the issue, and often acknowledge that neither side is necessarily 'right' or 'wrong'

@Gunfigther: how much military aid does the US provide to Israel each year? Just, you know, wondering how a non-muslim, non-jewish, American, can claim to be independant of this situation.

"Why do you think they would simply sit still when they could do what they want to do so badly?"

Israel is an ally of Egypt's...
It WAS an ally of Iran's until the Ayatollah came to power...
It is an ally of Jordan...

So...no. Israel does not hate the whole of the Arab world, or all Arab states.

Now, when a state or group such as Hamas has in its charter a "Kill all Jews" clause...funny how that changes a state's perceptions.

But yeah, Israel is not at war with all states with Arab populations, and has had Arab allies in the past and continues to enjoy them today, so let's stop this "Israel hates all the Arabs" nonsense--it's a lie and a sickly-disingenuous one, plain and simple.

The power differential between Palestine and Israel is the most important factor. Has Hamas targeted civilians? Yeah. But I say, so what? Israel targets civilians too, and kills LITERALLY 1000 times as many as the rockets do. The Israelis have absolutely no sense of proportionality at all. It's almost as if they don't consider the Palestinians their equals.

It's reminiscent of brutal crackdowns by the white planters of the new world on rebellious slaves who killed perhaps a stable boy or two.

To answer your crude OP, all of my international charity money goes to Oxfam and Doctors Without Borders. I try not to play favorites as to particular causes and regions.

"The Israelis have absolutely no sense of proportionality at all."

They do this in order to try to make a point to Hamas. Yes, clearly, they are trying to express superiority. The problem is that Hamas is run by people who are more than willing to see their own die in massive, disproportionate numbers as long as they eventually accomplish their goal, and Israel doesn't realize that they're just going to keep churning out more people from various nations until they reach some kind of agreement, which won't happen any time soon. It's comparable to the Vietnam War from this perspective in that the soldiers will die disproportionately but there will always be another, or from the other angle, it's comparable to the crackdowns on potential slave revolts like you said. Neither side's philosophy is a new way of thinking.

@ orathaic

"how much military aid does the US provide to Israel each year? Just, you know, wondering how a non-muslim, non-jewish, American, can claim to be independant of this situation."

First bo_sox and now you. Is no one actually reading my posts? I never *claimed* to be independent of the situation, I *advocate* for American diplomatic, financial, and political withdrawal from the situation.

America's substantial amount of aid to Israel is as unnecessary as it is disgusting. People need to start waking up to the fact that the pro-Zionist lobby is running our Middle East policy and consequently endangering American lives. Maybe the Muslim world wouldn't hate the West if we didn't back such an evil regime (Israel). This concept is readily apparent in Muslim extremist propaganda.

The argument I always hear is 'But we need to stand with Israel and prevent a second holocaust!' That might have been a fair argument in 1948, but not now. Last time I checked, Israel has nuclear weapons and the political capital to use them if necessary. They are in no significant danger of being pushed into the Mediterranean. If they *did* get pushed into the Mediterranean, they would take a whole lot of motherfuckers with them.

@ Thucydides

"It's reminiscent of brutal crackdowns by the white planters of the new world on rebellious slaves who killed perhaps a stable boy or two."

Eeeeh. I dispute that analogy. Palestine is considerably less helpless than the revolting slaves of old, as evidenced by the fact that they are much less docile than a slave population. Furthermore, slavery was ended because white people began to realize that brown people are people too, and therefore entitled to certain rights. It's much harder to humanize people who lob rockets into civilian neighborhoods (or actively/tacitly support those who do than it is to humanize (relatively helpless) slaves. I'm not justifying anything by anyone; I'm just saying that comparing Israelis to white slaveowners is a weak analogy at best and an outright fallacy at worst.

"It's almost as if they don't consider the Palestinians their equals."

Yeah. That's what happens when neither side adheres to the Laws of War. News flash: Palestinians don't consider Israelis as their equals. There are no moral 'winners' in this conflict. The only losers in this conflict are those who are too weak to offer effective non-violent resistance against the people on both sides who are getting them hurt/killed.

"The Israelis have absolutely no sense of proportionality at all."

True, but proportionality isn't a serious consideration for war criminals. The Israelis aren't sitting there thinking 'Gee, those Hamas rockets killed three of our guys. Let's kill exactly three militants then call it a day.' No. They're thinking 'Those Hamas rockets killed three of our guys. See that Palestinian civilian neighborhood? Fuck. That. Neighborhood.' And the conflict continues until everyone is dead or both sides reach a real agreement.

"Neither side's philosophy is a new way of thinking."

Exactly, which is why I can safely predict that the conflict will continue for decades, if not centuries, which supports my point that the rest of the world should save our collective resources for more productive pursuits and simply allow those barbaric fools who value a historically significant but strategically untenable piece of sand with their lives to fight/die for it as they so desire.

@ orathaic

To clarify, I *personally* am independent from the situation, because I am not personally invested in either religion nor loyal to either warring country/faction. Some of my tax dollars may go to Israel, but those taxes are paid against my will, so I don't consider that to be support for the Israeli side. Furthermore, if asked in RL about my views, I will openly express support for American withdrawal from the conflict, so it would be disingenuous to accuse me of tacitly supporting the Israelis.

As an aside, when someone takes your money against your will with weapons, it's called 'armed robbery', but when the government does it, it's called 'taxes'. Food for thought.

I'm not saying the Palestinians are as helpless as the black slaves of the Americas. What I'm saying is that Israel's reaction to minor provocations is comparable, in terms of it's (lack of) proportionality, to the brutal crackdowns that the slaver class visited on the slave populations after even the most minor and unsuccessful slave rebellions, hell even rumors of rebellions. The history of slavery is rife with examples of scores heads on pikes all for the crime of burning down a house and killing two or three plantation workers with farm tools.

Bottom line, I know why Israel is so trigger happy, it is as you, bo_sox, said - they are trying to "teach them a lesson."

And my point is that this is quite obviously a morally reprehensible tactic in the highest degree. It is for this reason that I cannot blame Hamas for returning fire with rockets aimed at any and all of Israel. They are simply fighting back

Before obiwan the fascist takes my last statement and runs with it - no, I DO NOT find that the actions of Hamas are morally acceptable. But Israel is worse and bears more responsibility. Bottom line.

Thucy, I agree with you, but Hamas is not "simply fighting back," they are recklessly endangering their own civilians for the singular goal of eradicating Israel rather than defending themselves. They have said so themselves. I don't condone Israel's actions but Hamas is not practicing self-defense.

Honestly, it's not that I agree with their tactics ethically speaking, but you can see that what they are doing is working with what they have to "win" their war with Israel, a war that, to be honest, it's hard to blame them for fighting, even for starting. No one would have blamed Native Americans for attacking, unprovoked, a European fort that popped up overnight on the coast, however wanton and barbaric the attack. The same for Hamas then.

Is it disgusting that they allow their civilians to be in harm's way? Perhaps, but this is what the people of Gaza seem to want. Support for violent resistance rose after the blood-soaked bombing campaign this summer. Hamas doesn't have a lot to work with, and so from a pragmatic, tactical point of view, their methods are entirely reasonable. Again, their methods are not *ethical* but they are at least rational.

Meanwhile Israel just appears to relish the prospect of rattling Palestine's cage.

This is very much a "lesser of two evils" situation and indeed I'm sure if the roles were reversed the behavior would be much the same as now on both sides, but the roles are not reversed, and for that, Israel is very very much the greater evil.

"No one would have blamed Native Americans for attacking, unprovoked, a European fort that popped up overnight on the coast, however wanton and barbaric the attack."

If they started using suicide attacks against the colonists, yeah, people would have blamed them. Sacrificing your own people on the front lines was acceptable then, though. Every soldier dead is a loss in today's world. I just wish that appreciation of life extended to non-Western nations.

"Perhaps, but this is what the people of Gaza seem to want."

Does that matter? The people of Israel want to blow Gaza out of the water. Are you going to support such tactics if the majority is in favor of it?

"Again, their methods are not *ethical* but they are at least rational."

Valuing your citizenry's survival is rational. Trading a few Israelis for one of your own, knowing full well that one of your own will die, is not rational. It's unethical to tell your own people to die for the cause even if it's voluntary service (I don't know if it is). That's what the Vietcong did and it's not rational there either. They made a horrible, horrible scenario that wasn't their fault a hell of a lot worse because of how many people they lost.

"This is very much a "lesser of two evils" situation and indeed I'm sure if the roles were reversed the behavior would be much the same as now on both sides, but the roles are not reversed, and for that, Israel is very very much the greater evil."

That doesn't sound like the hopeful person you usually are. Why not do something about both evils? Clearly, you think it's worth trying to do something about the greater evil, and if you think you can do something about the greater evil, it should be easy to do something about the lesser evil too.