Don't mess with the GM, tvrocks.

@Uclabb: Why would we be paralyzed by fear of getting killed? Only anti-town factions and power roles should worry about getting killed. Redshirts should want to get nightkilled so we don't lose power roles. The fact that you seem worried about dying is interesting.

Let's get this party started.

I'm going to ##vote uclabv to start things off because he is again starting a game by calling attention to something of little importance and suggesting something suboptimal for the town, just as he did last game as a lizard.

The town's one advantage is the unpredictability of power role actions. We shouldn't decide on their plans publicly. Let the marine decide.

Phone dying; bye.

##vote uclabb rather

Okay while this may seem like a one-sided fight. I am going to say that we should not lynch day 1. Allow me to respond to a few lynch arguments:
"The issue with no-lynch is that it gives Mafia a free no-information turn. We need voting information and discussion out early, and there's no way we can have a discussion without the threat of a lynch."
I will admit that the information argument is a strong one, and that will be addressed later. However phil, your second argument acts as if there is no threat of lynch when voting to lynch is a completely valid position, there is still pressure to speak even if we decide no-lynch, as people have the ability to change their mind.
The second is lynching can kill scum, which is true, but when we have a s little information as we do (which is jack-all) where are way more likely to hurt our team from the get-go.
The third reason is the most valid, lynching gives us info (in the form of a role flip) that we wouldn't have otherwise. However, I do not think that this information is worth losing a likely townie when we can wake up the next morning as have death information as well. (Not to mention the vigilante could easily decide to kill the most suspicious person anyway).
Also, we still gain information just by talking, information that does not kill unless it is applied, and it can be better applied later. By lynching we put the town at a numbers disadvantage while gaining marginally beneficial information, but if we talk and then decide not to lynch, we have the same amount of information and more townies than there would be otherwise.

Do I understand this correctly, the only possible ways the android dies are by being dissected or by the frag grenade? Or does nightkill immunity imply that ONLY dissection kills him?

We should def dissect someone this phase.

@flu- reading comprehension please. The job of the ship is to incentivize talking as much as possible. The job of the aliens is to shut it out and thus limit information. We want the marine to work with us in that goal to encourage talking.

And if there is one thing you can say about my mafia game, it's that I'm not afraid to be killed. I still haven't made it through the second lynch in any of the three games we have played. I'll write you a history of my play later.

@ghug trollolol I assume

put only one #

@Vashta -

"The second is lynching can kill scum, which is true, but when we have a s little information as we do (which is jack-all) where are way more likely to hurt our team from the get-go."

We either have nothing to go off of on day one or we expect that a night kill will help us on day two, and it's hard to believe that a nightkill will provide enough information to educatedly decide on a lynch on day two. The only thing that could actually give us information if we no-lynch is the result of an investigation, but that would imply a claim too.

"However, I do not think that this information is worth losing a likely townie when we can wake up the next morning as have death information as well."

Why isn't it? We have a higher chance of lynching scum on day two if the day one lynch flips town, and we can actually make an educated read, making only one day a semi-random vote as opposed to two. We can read the wagons on day one - if the player flips town, we can figure out who was pushing it, and if, in the best case scenario, the lynch is scum, not only have we increased our chance of victory significantly, but we can also see who bussed and who avoided the wagon altogether. If we no-lynch tonight, the scum get their kill, and we still don't have that analysis for day two.

@Vashta:
I think you underestimate how much information is gotten from a day 1 lynch.
The lynch is also far from a shot in the dark. It is very possible to catch scum day 1.

@OB_Gyn_Kenobi:
Are you the android bro?

@uclabb:
You totally didn't respond to anything I said to you in the first paragraph.
Someone who uses self meta to defend themselves is always enough to get on my radar too.
Regardless, I would be interested in your prior experience and play.

Does anyone have the links to the other mafia games?

Here's 4, the last one - threadID=1153331

@uclabb, not in the slightest. We want scum to be afraid all the time. Fear is what makes them act differently than the rest of us. Us Starfleet officers know that we have no reason to fear death. We don't need assurances that we won't be fragged to make accusations against people. If the scum want to refrain from accusing the people they think are town power rules out of fear, let them. All the better for the rest of us.

@Vash, your intentions seem pure, but you're wrong. What you're falling to consider is that the people flipping at night will be chosen by scum, and thus that the information we gain will be information they're comfortable with us having. We need to get out ahead of them, and that means lynching aggressively, not hiding and waiting.

@Flum
No, bro.

@bo: I would like to point out that your idea for tracing back the lynch to the person who started it. First off, mafia are more likely to be the people who pile onto a vote, not initate it. Second, I would rather work off of a kill that we know was done by the mafia/android than one where the town deicided to shoot itself in the foot. And the vote is semi-random day two regardless of whether we lynch day 1 as we still have night-kill information.
@Fluminator: Or perhaps you overestimate the information gained from a day 1 lynch. The mafia is also good at ensuring a townie dies without having a distinguisable connection (see M3 i believe).

Ghug, can you go into more detail on your vote? I doubt you're unwilling to change it but it seems awfully quick and I don't share the more impartial insight you had on his actions last game since I was mafia with him.

Ghug, that is a very good pro-lynch idea. However, who is killed should give us an idea to the profile of the mafia, and we will have more living townies thinking. We also have no guilt over the first dead townie, who is almost always someone who simply posts erractically anyway (see Slyguy). I have my reasons for supporting no-lynch, so I will stick. ##VoteNoLynch

I don't recall exactly, but last game he came in immediately and got everyone discussing some semantic bullshit regarding WIFOM. It served to distract from anything useful and set us back quite a bit. It was what called my attention to the two of you during the night, and I'm pretty sure it's part of the reason guak killed him. Now he's doing it again, starting a discussion that doesn't create much information and proposing something bad for the town.

@Vashta ...

"First off, mafia are more likely to be the people who pile onto a vote, not initate it."

I'm saying that we can trace who piles on, who starts votes, who busses, who stays out, who just tries to mix in, who votes for the mafia flips, who votes for the town flips - all of these things are indicators. I am just as interested in high town reads as I am high scum reads. You seem to be assuming that I am exclusively interested in lynching mafia on day one, and while that is certainly preferential, I am interested in keeping up with my own reads and adding to them in any way that I can, just as everyone else ought to be.

"Second, I would rather work off of a kill that we know was done by the mafia/android than one where the town [decided] to shoot itself in the foot."

Why do you automatically expect we'll lynch town? It's 14 on 4 - that's not a one in a million chance. Besides, it's not random. The mafia are the only ones with information, sure, but as Fluminator pointed out, it's not as if we can't have a somewhat realistic view of what we're doing today. We can avoid voting for our high town reads, and we can keep the mafia scared and restless in such a way that they might slip. We can build cases and see whose reasoning is fallacious and whose makes sense, and we can see who is pressing for a vote which is favorable to them and who is simply in an aggressive pursuit against a suspect. If we lynch town on day one, it's not the end of the world, and it can come out favorably for us, but if we lynch scum or even pick up on a decent suspect, the day has been a success. Why are you discounting that possibility?

"And the vote is semi-random day two regardless of whether we lynch day 1 as we still have night-kill information."

Of course, but we have more than we would have otherwise had. As others have said, you are underestimating the value of what we can get out of it. Maybe we don't get much - it's possible, I will concede that - but it is not guaranteed, and if we even gain a sliver against the mafia, it will pay off in huge dividends later. Think long term.

@Vash, Trying to judge based on who the mafia kills just leads us down a spiral of WIFOM, especially early on.

Vashta, why are you ignoring our arguments?

"I have my reasons for supporting no-lynch, so I will stick."

I respect your reasons, and I'm debating them. I'm happy to continue. Your approach is not exactly the most flexible approach around.

@Vash - if we follow your logic out, we should all just vote no lynch and hammer now. Then the scum get to kill a crewmember tonight, and tomorrow we are down one team member and have an equal amount of information. It's the discussion of who gets lynched today that allows us some insight into roles. Essentially, without a lynching today, we start the game with one fewer teammates and the exact same level of information, i.e. none.

@bo: There is a time for caution and a time for aggression. Early aggression leads to fear. Fear leads to bad decisions. Bad decisions hurt the town.
I am not arguing against discussing procedure or making reads or other forms of gathering information. I am just advising caution with it's application, I am advocating we lose one small piece of likely insignificant information (depending on reasoning of course) in exchange for having more players to help find mafia.
@ghug: Everything is WIFOM early on.

"Everything is WIFOM early on."

Just no.

"There is a time for caution and a time for aggression. Early aggression leads to fear. Fear leads to bad decisions. Bad decisions hurt the town."

First of all, you're not being cautious, you're being stubborn. You're welcome to stick to your guns, but ride out the storm for us.

Second of all, I want the mafia to be scared. Any townie does. Because fear leads to bad decisions, and bad decisions hurt the mafia. It's your logic, not mine. There is absolutely no reason for a townie to be scared of getting lynched, but mafia? Hell yeah, they should be.

@OB: I am counting on there being people who want to lynch to help provide information. I am just hoping for not making a rash judgment (like dropping the hammer) that puts us at a disadvantage. I am not advocating doing nothing, I am advocating not taking a (likely) disadvantegous final action.

Where is Thucy to help me out?

Bo, it's gonna be really hard to justify lynching you if you keep being so rational.

@Vash: So are you saying that we should talk and talk and talk...and then not lynch?