Ok, I'll make sure to thank him for your impending death in my prayers tonight Draugnar. ;)

Hey, I'm almost 50 and a diabetic with a failed thyroid, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. I doubt I make 75 and that means the 17 or 18 year old will only be 43. We don't elect Presidents that young and that's not likely to change.

Aw, thanks for the vote of confidence Draugnar. I *almost* feel bad about that joke now.

Don't. I cam take a joke. If I couldn't I wouldn't visit this forum with all the jokers here who can't fins their ass with both hands.

Lord my phone typing sucks tonight.

Well glad to hear it. (That you can take a joke I mean; not that your phone typing sucks. Though I'm guessing you got that...)

Anyways my brain's beginning to slow down at an alarming rate... I should probably get some sleep. Later o/

PE - I think the dismissal of generational decline should not be done so lightly. It *is* possible that there is something to it.

That *some* of you are able to text and walk at the same time does not make you the height of human evolution. Key word...SOME...

And if there is a generational decline taking place, I don't blame the youth. It isn't their fault; it is the fault of their parents. It is the fault of an increasing rate of single-parent households and divorce, which causes a subsequent decline in parenting as parents attempt to be friends with their distraught child. It is the decline in discipline, because god forbid a misbehaving child get a crack on the ass for mouthing off to an adult. It is the expectation of being given "things" because you were born, instead of earning things -- and part of this is due to a changing economy.

Many older people had jobs at a young age. I started working basically at about the age of 8, when my brother and I had a morning paper route - which jobs don't exist for kids anymore for a variety of reasons. But lots of people my age started working those sorts of jobs - and thus learning a work ethic and the value of earning what you want versus demanding and being given what you want - at an early age. I could go on.

But the bottom line is that the present state of American youth is something you should mourn with us, not bristle and get defensive about. You should blame the people like Obama that tell you that because you breath you should stick you hand out and have it filled with all your desires - these so-called "leaders" that have set up ridiculous expectations for so many of you...without telling you that once *everybody* sticks their hands out, there will be nobody left to hand things TO you...

So while I see a difference in today's youth versus my youth - I will admit personal bias, but I will also confess that my generation and those older are the ones to blame; not you...though there does come a point in time where you can no longer blame the adults and must take responsibility for yourself and recognize these things.

@krellin,

" semck - NO....it has everything to do with brain development, chemical balances, experience, etc etc etc. Your (childish) insistence that kids can be responsibile simply if we pretend they are is exactly the nonsense that comes out of kids that demonstrates they are not responsible."

That's a common belief, but it's not that well supported. Sure, brain studies show what you're saying -- but the brain studies all happen to be of kids who have grown up in our modern society, notice?

Far more was asked of kids far earlier in times past. That had its pluses and its minuses, but certainly the evidence suggests that they were able to handle responsible decisions pretty young when that's what society asked of them.

Responsible decisions, yes,but there is no denying the scientific evidence that overwhelmingly shows the teenage brain becomes seriously marred by mind altering drugs of all types, including alcohol.

Oh, and there is this thing called microevolution. Modern teens do not have the se physiology of teens in the time of Moses.

Draugnar, you're only accepting his narrative over mine because it fits your own irrational preconceptions.

Again, we're fine. You guys continue beating the same tired drum your parents and grandparents and greatgrandparents did about you and your parents and your grandparents instead of making logical assessments all you like, we'll be over in the corner fixing America's problems and leading the country into an unprecedented era of prosperity.

None of us are any more entitled or stupid than any other generation of younger people are, you're only seeing it more vividly because:

(a) we're the first generation you've been able to watch grow up. Just wait until we have kids, you'll see it all over again.
(b) our lives are more public than those of any generation before us due to the rise in technology allowing it in the past decade or so. I imagine if your generation grew up in the era of the 24-hour news cycle and the advent of social media, the youthful indiscretions of your generation would be as publicly bemoaned as ours are.

Meanwhile, a more objective look...

http://inthecapital.streetwise.co/2014/02/07/millennials-may-be-the-smartest-generation-when-it-comes-to-finances/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-millennials/2013/08/30/a6d9a854-ff6c-11e2-9711-3708310f6f4d_story.html

Feel free to continue wallowing in your irrational fears. You're not alone. I'll close with a quote from Plato:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Your complaints are older than Christ. Every generation of old people says the same thing about every generation of young people and has said the same thing for literally thousands of years now. The world hasn't stopped spinning yet. Stop worrying so damn much just because you're going to be depending on us a decade from now and we're not yet a finished product.

Yours is the *second* generation that I've seen grow up. Trust me, you are dumber than your parents and your parents made the same claim. Hell, the hippies of the 60s made that claim. Yet this nation has been on the decline for longer than I've been alive.

My parents are older than you, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And never mind that minutia, the larger point is the same. You're selectively choosing non-objective temporal frames of reference to back up an indefensible argument. Everyone says this about every generation, yet the progress of human civilization ebbs and flows in ways that aren't and can't be causally tied to a given generation's actions. Humanity is bigger than that. I guess I should be flattered that you think us capable of ruining the entire country or the world or whatever have you, but we're not. Human history is bigger than the actions of a particular generation.

Gen X, Gen Y, and Millennials. And if they are older than me, then they must have had you late in life. I'm old enough and been married long enough to be a grandparent and many of my classmates *are* grandparents.

They did. This isn't really the point though.

Actually lol @ the idea that America has been in decline since you were born. You were born under the constant threat of nuclear Armageddon. America is currently the safest, strongest, most prosperous country in the history of mankind. What decline?

Financially, America of the 40s and 50s was stronger than the 60s to today. I have seem some.of the highest taxes and the biggest wastes of money this country has ever produced. That is the decline of which of speak. As far as safest... One date, 9 Sept 2001. The single worst loss of civilian life in an act of war on American soil *ever*. You think we are safer than we were in the 50s and 60s? The USSR had the brains not to push it to nuclear war as did we. There was never a real threat of that happening. But every time I tale a flight today or wall into an amusement park, I am.reminded by the security all around just how dangerous our world has become. Gone are the days of hoping on a bike and riding to the mall at 13 years old. Too dangerous with the sexual predators out there. No, we are not safe and hoi delude yourself.if you think we are safer than we were in the 50s.

11 Sept 2001 obviously (9/11 communicated incorrectly.to the fingers).

Crime is at a historic low, GDP at a historic high, but don't let that get in the way of your paranoia.

Feel free to come back when you're ready to have a rational discussion.

The US is obviously declining when compared to the rest of the world. The point is that the human race is not, and even the USA is progressing. People will always make it work, it's the way our species is and the reason we've evolved to where we are.

Don't complain about shit, just keep up.

And nobody has provided a valid argument that 18 year olds are "too young to drink." Everyone will be different, 18 feels like a more than safe age to set the limit, with the expectation that people younger will break this rule - and they should and for the most part they will be fine.

Why 18? You set it to 18 and the 16 and 17 year olds will bitch then you set it down even further. 21 keeps it out of high school (at least legally) and most of college.

And we *have* provided reasons for why not 18. The development of the human brain is a very valid reason. Inconvenient for the 18 year olds, but still a factual and valid reason not to allow drinking at 18.

"One of the things I used to enjoy doing as a child (around the age of 4) was eating the brandy soaked cherries from my Gran's glass. A glass of wine or sherry at the occasional dinner does no harm to a preteen child, and neither does a shandy or beer in controlled conditions. It encourages responsible use and takes away the mysticism."

My dad let me taste his beer and have a bit of wine when I was around 5. Didn't like the taste then, don't like it now. I do think that if kids were allowed to taste it (taste, not drink a full glass or anything) a fair number would decide early on to drink their juice fresh.

If 18 year old are still developing why's it globally understood as being the approximate point a person hits adulthood?

Are you denying the scientific evidence that has been presented everytime this topic has come up in the past? A 16 year old is responsible enough to drive a car, but not run for public office. An 18 year old is responsible enough to run for public office but not drink. A 21 year old is responsible enough to drink but not eligible for social security. A 62 year old is eligible for social security but may soon no longer be able to drive. Our bodies change gradually over time and we need to set *some* point for responsibilities and privileges. It seems indiscriminate but is based on generations of experience and what the *typical* level of mental and physical maturity is at a given age.

"An 18 year old is responsible enough to run for public office but not drink."

. . .

" But every time I tale a flight today or wall into an amusement park, I am.reminded by the security all around just how dangerous our world has become. Gone are the days of hoping on a bike and riding to the mall at 13 years old."

Draug, do you really not understand that this makes you the sucker? None of that stuff actually makes people safer. It makes people like you think they are safer.

Anyway, America's screwed-up drinking culture is in part caused by the higher drinking age. There's not a switch in everyone's brain when they hit a certain age that makes their brain mature enough for whatever. At whatever point we decide to make legal consent possible (I think 21 is way too high and 18 is a bit high; 17 would probably be a good compromise), all of the privileges and risks of adulthood should be available.

@ck - I didn't say it made me safer, just that it shows the world and the country aren't as safe as they once were. Heightened security measures prove we aren't safe anymore, whether they are effective or not. They wouldn't be there if things hadn't happened to put fear in the citizens and the government.

Well, if all the risks and privileges should co.e with the drinking, then 17 is too low. I would accept 19 as optimal if just to keep it out of HS. It once was 19 for everything (beer to liquor) and that was both easy and kept legal drinking off high school campuses.