"butcher of Grozny"
"Chechen terrorists who hold children hostage"

One of these people/groups killed hundreds or thousands of times as many innocent people as the other. Guess which one!

Nothing HRW says 'enlightens me'. George Soros has made it his life goal to destroy Russia, and financed all the faux color revolutions in the CIS. This isn't even disputed.

Here's a hint:
https://www.google.com/search?q=grozny+satellite+1999&oq=grozny+satellite+1999&

"You're a smart guy, Putin, I'll give you that, but as a democrat you are really a joke."

I'm not a democrat, but ironically I have much more capacity for political tolerance than the likes of those who profess their commitment to 'democracy', which really means only supporting governments when they agree with your politics, and calling for coups and savagely violent putschs, like what is going on in Ukraine, when they don't.

And the protests you're now lauding in Russia have turned violent. But naturally all violence instigated by protesters will be blamed on the police.

Correction:
https://www.google.com/search?q=grozny+satellite+1999
and select "images"

It's always funny when liberals declare their solidarity for protests in 'enemy states', but declare their support for the 'rule of law' when it comes to dissent in their own country.

I didn't use Hitler as a reference point for a political persona though. I used Hitler's popularity as an example of how it's rather weak to argue from the popularity of a leader.

And sure there are exceptions. From the Wikipedia page about Godwin's Law:

"Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis – often referred to as "playing the Hitler card". The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies"

Also:
"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

The topic of the OP referred to protests against Putin's soft authoritarianism while the Hitler reference was not an inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparison but instead just an example of how the popularity of leader is not a good way to judge them. It did not at all compare Putin to Hitler.

So yeah, arguably in this case invoking Godwin's Law was a fallacious miscasting of my argument. Not so much ab's mention of it, which I think was only half serious anyway, but definitely Putin33's later dismissal of what he deems 'so called' democrats (aka people who know there's more to democracy than voting).

"I'm not a democrat, but ironically I have much more capacity for political tolerance than the likes of those who profess their commitment to 'democracy', which really means only supporting governments when they agree with your politics, and calling for coups and savagely violent putschs, like what is going on in Ukraine, when they don't."

Of course I don't support governments that don't agree with my politics. Why would I? But I don't go around calling all governments that I don't support anti-democratic as you are suggesting. I reserve that just for the ones that are actually anti-democratic. You know, like Russia's current government.

"And the protests you're now lauding in Russia have turned violent. But naturally all violence instigated by protesters will be blamed on the police."

Funny how you felt the need to mention that yet failed to respond to the examples I gave of peaceful protesters being arrested (Pussy Riot, Green Peace and the youtube video I linked). I guess you just filter out whatever information doesn't fit you fantasy fairy tale of a democratic Russia.

"It's always funny when liberals declare their solidarity for protests in 'enemy states', but declare their support for the 'rule of law' when it comes to dissent in their own country."

Your just making it up as you go along. Whatever justifies your support of human rights violations. You don't know me at all. I am just as critical of human rights violations in my own country. They do happen. Fortunately not by a long shot as much nor as bad as in Russia though.

Also, I don't think many people in my country would consider Russia an "enemy state". I certainly don't. You just consider anyone that objects to Russia's human rights violations an enemy. Doing so you again fall perfectly in line with Russian government propaganda.

Putin - while I'm more prone to agree with you than many here, I do have to point out that supporting the Ukrainian protestors - though they have become violent - is not hypocrisy on our part. Euromaiden has been going on, largely nonviolently, since November. It was only when protesters were stripped of their right to peacefully protest did they become violent. I would say that's justifiable.

And while the US is doing too much in Ukraine in my opinion (Kissenger was on CNN today saying that we're fucking up big time by sticking our noses in the Ukraine) we're not supporting a coup or anything. Nowhere have we said Yanukovych (I butchered his name) must go. The aid package we offered them is based on economic reforms, provided that the two sides find an amicable end to the political crisis, and basic human rights are respected.

But I'll take your side that Putin doesn't throw in jail anyone who opposes him. There are plenty who oppose him, and he does allow for protests against him. The caveat is that there's this line that, if crossed, gets a swift crackdown from the Kremlin.He will only tolerate people to go so far

"The caveat is that there's this line that, if crossed, gets a swift crackdown from the Kremlin.He will only tolerate people to go so far"

Yeah right, "there's this line". Great fucking euphemism for oppression.

* Apparently some chicks playing political rock music is going too far (Pussy Riot).

* Apparently being an opposing presidential candidate is going too far (Kasparov).

* Apparently working for independent media is going too far (several journalists for Novaya Gazeta).

But yeah, other than that freedom of speech or running for an election may get the government to "crack down" on you Russia is totally democratic.

Here's another fun quote...

Speaking about Kasparov, former KGB general Oleg Kalugin in 2007 remarked: "I do not talk in details—people who knew them are all dead now because they were vocal, they were open. I am quiet. There is only one man who is vocal and he may be in trouble: [former] world chess champion [Garry] Kasparov. He has been very outspoken in his attacks on Putin and I believe that he is probably next on the list."

Criticism can get you killed. Don't worry about it though... it's just that there is this line.

Criticism won't get you killed. Its who you are and your position in society that determines if Putin will crack down or not. Those people who are prominent in society or any protest that actually threatens his regime he'll take action on. If its just a few thousand people marching on the Kremlin, however (such as this weekend) then he doesn't care. So long as his position isn't threatened, he won't care what you say or who you say it to.

Who's the moron refering to Human Right's Watch? Uh....if you are worried abut Putin jailing a few people, here's a line form HRW's report on the US:

"The US incarcerates more people than any other country."

To continue:
"Practices contrary to human rights principles, such as the death penalty, juvenile life-without-parole sentences, and solitary confinement are common and often marked by racial disparities. Increasing numbers of non-citizens are held in immigration detention facilities although many are not dangerous or at risk of absconding. Federal prosecutions for illegal entry and reentry have escalated.

The federal government under President Barack Obama has continued some abusive counterterrorism policies, including detentions without charge at the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, and proceedings before fundamentally flawed military commissions."

Amen, Krellin, AMEN, you piece of shit! Sentencing in the US is totally batshit crazy.

Indeed it is. Of course, we also have sub-cultures in the US where a prison sentence doesn't bear much stigma - so we have problems on both sides of the equation.

Perhaps the (hopeful) massive shift in drug policy will make some changes for the good.

If pot is legalized and possession is decriminalized in some of the other minor drugs, our prisons could be seemingly empty in a decade. It would be beautiful. The struggle is that it'll piss off the private prisons if they legalize pot as a whole.

I don't' think the private prisons hold this great power that many of you attribute to them. The laws will be changed by politicians, and the massive shift we possibly see going on is voters...and believe it or not, sometimes politicians listen to voters.

No to mention the tax revenue they can start raking in from legalized pot sales.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/pot-buyers-add-more-1m-colorado-tax-coffers-2 12035047

I've got a bunch of stuff on private prisons on my other computer. I wish I had all those links but the hard drive is wrecked. Maybe I'll grab them later today.

Legalized pot is obviously the future - it's going to happen, and it's good. No debate there.

"Who's the moron refering to Human Right's Watch? Uh....if you are worried abut Putin jailing a few people, here's a line form HRW's report on the US:
<snip>"

Yeah, and if I kick you in the nuts it will be okay because some other guy also kicks people in the nuts.

"So long as his position isn't threatened, he won't care what you say or who you say it to."

Hurray. Freedom to be insignificant.

oscar, if you are going to be bitching about something, and using HRW as your source of data, then you had best leave Russia alone, as they are by far NOT the worst actor on teh stage.

So pathetic little Americans whining about Russia while ignoring the gross behavior of their own government becomes a little ludicrous.

As are you. I know...you are just so angry because someone *dared* to attack the precious USA with truth...wahhh....get over it.

krellin, you apologetic moron, I never said Russia is the worst with respect to human rights violations, which I know they are not, not even by a long shot. Other nations violating human rights does however IN NO WAY make it okay for Russia to do so too.

This thread was about Russia not about the USA. Start a thread about NSA eavesdropping your phone calls, Guantanamo, Abu Graib or one of many other occurrences of human rights violations by the USA and you'll see me object to them just as much. And, yeah, the zealous incarceration of young black men that smoked a dooby is horrible too. Happy now?

Still doesn't change the fact that there is no real freedom of speech in Russia (and thus no real democracy) and you can get killed there for speaking up.

Oscar - I don't think it's freedom to be insignificant. I think it's freedom if you're insignificant. Its an important distinction. One implies that there is no freedom at all in the country, whereas I think its more a case where the broad general population have freedom of speech and protest and such, but the elites are strictly under surveillance and under threat. Its still a bad scenario, but not quite as bad as what you're suggesting.

Yeah I got that. You have freedom of speech until your use of it becomes significant. That's like saying you can eat all you want unless you are hungry though.

"Funny how you felt the need to mention that yet failed to respond to the examples I gave of peaceful protesters being arrested (Pussy Riot, Green Peace"

As to Pussy Riot, Putin said the women should not be judged to harshly. The law is perfectly proportionate to what the law is in other countries who get a free pass on human rights, like Germany, France, and Finland. All countries have the same level of punishment for what Pussy Riot did. Pussy Riot's actions had no sympathy even among liberal Russians who despise Vladimir Putin. They weren't prisoners of conscience, they were convicted by an independent court for hooliganism. They went into one of the holiest sites in Russia and engaged in a profanity laced tirade full of anti-Christian insults. I'm resolutely anti-theist, but that's just disrespectful. That's not speaking truth to power, which is why countries across Europe have laws against stunts like that, not just big bad Russia. And they aren't non-violent either. They've repeatedly engaged in acts of vandalism, and call themselves 'art terrorists'.

As for Greenpeace, which I generally sympathize with, they scaled an oil rig in Russian domestic waters. They were released a couple of months later. Actions like these are not tolerated by other governments either, and in for example Japan's case, dealt with much more harshly. I mean there is such a thing as civil disobedience. You expect to get arrested to raise awareness. You can't complain when you are arrested for breaking the law. In this case they performed an action that was pretty dangerous to all involved considering it was arctic waters.

These examples of yours fall flat.

Putin do you agree with the Kremlins stance on gay people ??

No.

Sure, what Pussy Riot did was disrespectful to the church. That was the whole point. The church disrespects women so a couple of feminists return the favor by disrespecting them back. In a free society no one is sentenced to serve prison time for such things.

You can point to other countries all you want but that doesn't make it right. With Japan and Green Peace you even have a point. Your assertion that Pussy Riot would have gotten the same treatment in Germany, France or Finland is however quite ridiculous and entirely counter-factual. Sure, in those countries the police would probably have removed them from the church, but they would certainly not have been sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Their conviction of "hooliganism motivated by religious hatred" was a farce. The verdict included that being a feminist equates to religious hatred. Yeah right. Also, even though you keep painting them as violent vandals they were not at all violent. In fact, they did not even resist arrest when the authorities came to remove them from the church (there's video evidence of that - where's your evidence of them being violent?). In fact they were first offenders and the offense was non-violent.

Two years imprisonment for a couple of non-violent first offenders expressing their political views, two of whom are the mother of young children is excessively harsh. No doubt about it.

So, what about Kasparov? You conveniently didn't respond to that one now did you? You know that he was brutally beaten by the police right? And you know he was in prison merely for being a presidential candidate right? You're probably gonna say that Kasparov is a violent vandal though, or that other countries also lock up political opposition. Did I get that right, Putin? Is that's what you're gonna say?

Russia is a cultural backwater - generally speaking
Men wear jeans and leather jackets and their young blond trophy girlfriends wear fur anything .... or is that just in Turkish seaside resorts