I'm from one of the countries within the only cultural region left on the globe (the West) where women are regarded as first-class citizens.

You have no answers, as previously noted. Only self-satisfying, pretentious faux-outrage.

I could not agree with PE more

I second Gun's support of PE.

'I'm from one of the countries within the only cultural region left on the globe (the West) where women are regarded as first-class citizens.'

Does this mean you can point out a lack of systematic sexism in your country? Actually, when you say 'left', does that mean there were previous cultural regions where sexism wasn't a problem, but they have been wiped out?

i'm confused.

The West, where women still fight for equal pay, where less than 10% of all rapes lead to a successful prosecution.
The countries that turn a blind eye to the suffering of individuals because they have a 'trade deal' with the govt, because when we insist that trade should always be more important than basic human rights we get cheap clothes at the expense of the workforce who often work for very little in inhumane conditions ...... but of course we are doing them a favour because they can't wait to get out of that factory, get down to their local McDonalds and fill themselves up with shit until they are ready to pop ....that Western culture must be so inviting, and the more 'culture' we give them the safer their women are, does anyone really believe this bullshit ??

Spot on, Nigee.

I am from a Western country (the UK) and I can certainly say that in this country the systematic oppression of women is still a huge problem.

"I am from a Western country (the UK) and I can certainly say that in this country the systematic oppression of women is still a huge problem."

Well now I've heard everything.

I do because now they get openly raped amd treated like property in the non-westernized countries we are discussing.

I'm loosing the plot of this thread... Is the left extending their argument for trade sanctions to include the entire world now? I am struggling to see any connection between rape and Starbucks or the Big Mac.

Methinks, in the light of this conversation, that every major city should invest in a rape stone for the likes of Nigee to hit repeatedly with a hammer. That should satisfy their need to be seen to be doing something without causing any of the damage that their incoherent collection of ideas would lead to.

@ Octavious - No, but we are pointing out that even in 'Western' countries, patriarchy exists, and women are treated unequally as a result of male privilege.

This was *specifically* in response to the claims being made by President Eden that, basically, women are treated with perfect equality in the west, and therefore it's a great thing that the advance of global capitalism will wipe out non-western cultures and therefore free the women of non-western nations from their shackles.

Women in western nations have not yet achieved equality.

Spot on Jamie ..... the naive assumption that exporting Western 'culture' in the form of capitalist market economics can somehow alleviate the subjugation of women seems puerile and churlish.
If that were the case you would have hoped that by now women would have equal pay by now .... or that countries that are Western trading partners such as Miiddle Eastern countries, China, Israel, et al, would have a more modern attitude to basic human rights, one of them surely being protection of women against rape.

How about this thought - and I'm not expressing an opinion, just throwing in some thoughts to stimulate ideas.

By and large, across all the countries on earth, the "natural" population growth in any particular country is inversely correlated with the "rights" that women have in that country. The fewer rights women have, the higher the population growth rate. Countries where women have most rights all have negative natural population growth rates. By "natural" growth rate I mean population growth excluding the effects of migration.

So countries with few rights for women export their people, and therewith their ideas, to countries with high levels of women's rights. All the countries with women's rights are gradually and systematically and relentlessly being populated by Muslims and Africans and citizens of other countries with fewer women's rights.

So this is the question: Does the promotion of women's rights within a society eventually lead to the extinction of the gene pool of that society?

Interesting point ..... I'm not sure if it is womens right per se (because of Switzerland) but I get your point, mature social democracies have seen growth rates dropping where India and China are breeding crazy ..... I live in the UK and we have net migration but that is dominated by other Europeans and not Muslims and Africans. Do you have stats to back up your claims that of the relentless population growth ??

"This was *specifically* in response to the claims being made by President Eden that, basically, women are treated with perfect equality in the west, and therefore it's a great thing that the advance of global capitalism will wipe out non-western cultures and therefore free the women of non-western nations from their shackles.

Women in western nations have not yet achieved equality."

That is not what I said. I didn't say women were perfectly equal, I said the West had their shit together compared to the rest when it comes to women's rights. And they do. Yes, women make less money than men, sometimes for the same job, and yes, that's a problem. No, it doesn't compare to living in a society where women and girls get murdered for trying to get any education. Yes, relatively few rape complaints lead to convictions, and yes, that's a problem. No, it doesn't compare to living in a society that forces rape victims to marry their rapists because of familial shame. If you guys want to sit there and equivocate the West's record on women's rights with societies that force rape victims to marry their rapists, like Morocco, or where gang rape is a national epidemic, like India, go ahead, but you lose any credibility in this discussion, full stop, end of story.

+infinity to President Eden.

PE - It was simply your claim that the west treats women as first class citizens - which could easily be interpreted as meaning they are treated equally and fairly.

Thank you for expanding on your point, the clarification is useful.

"Actually, when you say 'left', does that mean there were previous cultural regions where sexism wasn't a problem, but they have been wiped out?"

We're talking about regions that are relatively progressive in the arena of women's rights. The West wasn't always the most progressive area in the world on that front. In the Golden Age of Islam during the European Dark Ages and onward until the Mongolian invasions of the Middle East, the Muslim world was the most progressive area of the world, and while I'm not sharp on how they regarded women I would imagine they were ahead of the pack on that front as well. The problem, of course, is that they took a step back in all respects after the Mongolian invasions and then stagnated until the present, so of course they're well behind the West by now.

I'm just stating that the West wasn't always the leader -- but it clearly is now and the sooner Western ideals regarding the importance of treating all individuals as equals, and protecting their individual rights, and allowing all individuals the chance to live the best life they can make for themselves spread and become accepted by the rest of the world, the better. What is arrogant about desiring that the ideas that all people are created equal, deserve respect, have rights that should be protected and should be allowed to pursue their dreams be accepted across the globe?

I'm guessing those happy pills that are doing the rounds have not reached PE yet.....

Draug just 'cos you love someone to bits doesn't mean you can give him infinity points, but you can give him one if you want to ....

In the eyes of the law here in 'Murica, women are equal to men, blacks and Hispanics (and all the other races) are equal to white. Only LGBTQ people are discriminated against and treated by the law as second class citizens and *that* si something we should *truly* be worried about.

"PE - It was simply your claim that the west treats women as first class citizens - which could easily be interpreted as meaning they are treated equally and fairly."

Yeah, I see what you mean. What I mean is that for the most part, women are integrated into Western society as equals and respected as equals. We're not perfect and have a way to go for certain, particularly on some issues -- but for the moment we're at the forefront, and it isn't really close

actually, side q

is "rape complaint" the right way to phrase that? on rereading it sounds a little trivializing, but i haven't heard another phrasing commonly used. maybe "report?"

someone help me out here, I don't like the way "complaint" sounds there at all

Reported rape or rape accusation, depending on whether the alleged attacker is identified by the alleged victim. Remember, not everyone who cries wolf has actually been attacked by a wolf.

You were doing so well, President Eden. More or less perfectly, actually.

But then you had to pull some nonsense about how "complaint" is somehow a trivializing term. "Complaint" is a term of art in the law for the document that formally starts the ball rolling on a lawsuit. So it's not like you can just switch out "report" for "complaint." They're two entirely different things. "Complaint" isn't related to the common use of "complaining" any more than "pleading" in a legal context is related to our common meaning of the word. Assuming your data is legit, you can't just swap out "complaint" for another, more sympathetic word because "complaint" has a very specific meaning that you need to preserve.

Your attempt at PC policing just makes you look incredibly ignorant and undermines your position generally. Which is a shame, because you're right that the West treats women better than, say, Arab, Indian, or even Japanese culture.

And again, Dr. Draugnar, Esq. does what he does best: confidently misunderstanding law things.

I didn't state it as a legal thing, Invictus. I simply gave terms that are *commonly* used. You *assumed* I was making a legal statement.

So one again...

@Invictus - Fuck off!

You missed the easy and correct answer to President Eden's question. I didn't assume you were making a legal statement. I said you were confidently misunderstanding what was at issue here. Which you did, by providing just another PC synonym rather than seeing that a "rape complaint" is a specific thing that probably has to be preserved in the discussion.

Didn't actually know it was a legal term of art, thanks for clarifying. Do you at least understand where I'm coming from though? We don't say "murder complaint" or "robbery complaint." If it's an established legal phrase with a specific meaning then okay, that's fine, it just sounds trivializing to me based on vernacular understanding of "complaint." I don't see that as being overly concerned with political correctness.

And to stay on-topic, if "rape complaint" being trivializing is the worst the West is doing then it's still head and shoulders above the story in the OP. So I respectfully disagree that I compromised my original argument, by which I still very firmly stand.

"I look forward to the day when capitalist-driven globalization eradicates such barbaric, backwards, primitive cultures from the face of the Earth."
- if you have a 'culture' that just focuses on things such as economic growth and increasing revenues and profits, then lots of barbaric acts 'such as FGM' are ignored for the sake of keeping the cash tills a-ringin'.
Combine this with large scale arms exports to just about anyone who has the cash and if politically expedient countries who don't have the cash but they want to fight someone you don't like:-
Globalisation has actually enabled many despotic countries not to change barbaric practices because they are strong trading partners of the West. In fact in many cases barbaric practices are encouraged/financed by Western demand.
1) Sweat shop labour to supply us with ever-cheaper clothing, etc
2) Destruction of ancient rainforests to provide grazing land for beef cattle
3) The sex-tourism trade in many poor countries fueled by demand from the West
4) Poisoning or rivers and lands with use of dangerous agro-chemicals
5) Enslavement of people caused by supply of arms to your 'trading partners' which is then used against countries that don't share our socio-economic or pokitical views, or trade sanctions and restriction of basic medical supplies which has led to avoidable suffering and death of many millions of people.
6) Protecting countries that carry out barbaric acts on other countries
7) Straight up invasion of other countries to spread the 'capitalist globalisation' message.
8) Supply of chemical weapons to despots to be used against the 'non-believers'
9) Support for regimes with modern day policies of oppression against its citizens and it's neighbouring states, make your own list
10) Ignoring the suffering and plight of millions of families that are displaced by the practices and policies of globalization.
The world you see in 2014 is not a world crying out for more Western globalization, it is a world that that in many places are the victims of such unsustainable economic trading practices.
The idea that women the world over are waiting for a string of Western fast food outlets to arrive in their town before they can expect to see real social change and an improvement in their human rights is cringeworthy ignorant nonsense.
But in saying all of this I do understand people like you truly believe this to be true, that you are 'saving the world' via capitalism, and I realize that evidence to the contrary that seems to question your idyll can be ignored or dismissed, it's like a capitalist arrogant fascistic fundamentalism where profits come first and basic human rights are way down the list of key objectives to be met..... it's arrogant but even worse for you and your kind, completely unsustainable.
Changing attitudes and educating the ignorant is a massive part of the change that needs to take place ..... hence the article, your response just highlights how much education is still required.

"Do you at least understand where I'm coming from though? We don't say "murder complaint" or "robbery complaint." If it's an established legal phrase with a specific meaning then okay, that's fine, it just sounds trivializing to me based on vernacular understanding of "complaint.""

We would say "robbery complaint" or "murder complaint" if we're referring to the formal document. Whether those crimes, or even rape, NEED a criminal complaint filed depends on the jurisdiction.

I do see where you're coming from, but it's a place of ignorance. In no way is the use of "complaint" trivializing rape. To say so is postmodern, uniformed wordplay. The use of "complaint" in a legal context is likely a holdover from Law French or something, and not even that closely related to the current, normal-person meaning etymologically. As I said though, I agree with you on everything else here.

@ Draugnar: "In the eyes of the law here in 'Murica, women are equal to men"

Just because the law says they're equal doesn't mean they're treated equally in practice. Sexism, and discrimination and unequal treatment based on that sexism, is something encountered by 'Murican women on a daily basis.