A truly great man. South Africa isn't the basket case Zimbabwe is in large part due to Nelson Mandela's sound leadership. Let's hope the country keeps to his example and not kooks like Julius Malema as time goes by.

The saddest part is what the man had to go through in the last six months or so of his life.

Every political or military leader of every persuasion is a dangerous sociopath. We can only strive to have enough offsetting sociopaths within the constraints of limited institutional power to keep all of them in check.

That said, RIP Mandela. Not especially saintly or horrible.

To quote Mandela himself: "I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying"

^Inappropriate or not, I can't read that and not think of--

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints,
The sinners are much more fun,
You know that Only the Good Die Young."

95 isn't young and a Billy Joel song's maybe an odd way to take that...

But I DO agree with that Mandela quote...if there is such a thing as a real saint, it's someone that keeps trying to better himself and the world no matter how many times either or both confront him with challenges...and Nelson Mandela was the rare person who did just that, and changed history for the better.

For someone as great as he was, 195 would still be too young and too soon.

RIP.

"Every political or military leader of every persuasion is a dangerous sociopath. "

Oh shut up.

@ Putin: Puerile name-calling of your debating opponents and other attempts to silence them ("Oh shut up") only convince others of your immaturity and total lack of intellectual stamina

@obiwanobiwan: Words are a cheap and easily self-serving vehicle for a man of advancing age. Better to judge the man by his actions at a younger age, when he had both action and words to choose from. Mandela chose violence, mayhem, and the murder of innocents.

@ Dipper,

You engaged in character assassination vs Mandela in a post mourning his death on the day of its announcement, and you want to lecture others about decorum, respect, and refraining from ad hominems. Take a hike.

Tendmote's sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, attacks on every public official in existence got old ages ago. I get that he thinks his bowel movements don't stink everybody else is beneath him. It's become redundant at this point.

@ Dipper,

You haven't bothered to answer my question about how why you bring up Mandela's personal life but give phony support to Gandhi by comparison, despite him being worse on that front? If that's the case why'd you bring it up, just to dance on a man's grave?

Afrikaners are "innocents". They didn't profit off the back of a thoroughly draconian and evil system, not to mention stolen land and resources, nope.

Like I said, they should have just asked nicely. Daily human rights abuses by the Afrikaners get not a word of condemnation from DapperDon, but no shortage of abuse for the ANC and Mandela.

One of the only leaders who had the guts and the intelligence back in 2003 to speak out against the War on Iraq ..... Obama should learn something from this man, it's not enough to be intelligent and know what is right, you have to be brave enough to do what is right ..... Guantanomo Bay !!

The greatest thing about Mandela the man (as opposed to Mandela the legend) is the way he demonstrated better than perhaps any other how a man can change. If he had been killed early on in his life then DipperDon's assessment would have been accurate. An angry and violent man not much better than the scum he was fighting and worthy of little comment.

However, change he did, and a truly impressive statesman was forged. His efforts to understand his opponents and to reconcile rather than make war deserve great admiration. A lot of the supposed anti-racism campaigners on this site would do well to adopt some of his methods. Maybe they would actually achieve something if they did. He was also one of those rare politicians who connect with the people and manage to keep a sense of good humour. Much like Boris Johnson, but somewhat better.

What he actually achieved is perhaps a bigger debate. A lot of the good that happened would have likely happened regardless of whether Mandela was at the helm, and what has happened since he left power has been hugely disappointing, but the man he became was fundamentally a force for good, and for that I salute him.

There is no question:

If a part of the population suppresses another part, it is the responsibility of the oppressors - even if they don't actively support the oppression - to do what they can for justice.

"An angry and violent man not much better than the scum he was fighting and worthy of little comment" - Steve Biko, and all the other fallen heroes who we have long since forgotten
And there would have been more if needed because good people will always have the courage to stand up for what is wrong - Apartheid died long before Mandela, he and his comrades won, his work is done !!

@ DipperDon: "He was designated a terrorist by the white government and arrested in 1962."

So in your view, Mandela was a bad guy because a brutal, racist, undemocratic regime said he was? That's your argument? The apartheid regime was one of the most evil governments of the 20th Century, and yet you're willing to condemn Mandela on the basis of their opinion?

Fuck you again.

I also have to applaud Invictus's insight when he said: "South Africa isn't the basket case Zimbabwe is in large part due to Nelson Mandela's sound leadership."

+1 to Invictus, this is a very good point. Mandela made a point, when he came to power, of working for reconciliation, and not seeking retribution against his former oppressors. In contrast, under Mugabe, Zimbabwe went from a country in which blacks were persecuted, to a country in which whites were persecuted - a situation which has led it towards ruin.

Mandela was a democratic socialist ....one of my guys, a good man, a good person.

Political ideology
Mandela was an African nationalist, an ideological position he held since joining the ANC,[325] also being "a democrat, and a socialist".[326] Although he presented himself in an autocratic manner in several speeches, Mandela was a devout believer in democracy and would abide by majority decisions even when deeply disagreeing with them.[327] He held a conviction that "inclusivity, accountability and freedom of speech" were the fundamentals of democracy,[328] and was driven by a belief in natural and human rights.[329] This belief drove him to not only pursue racial equality but also to promote gay rights as part of the post-apartheid reforms.[330]

A democratic socialist, Mandela was "openly opposed to capitalism, private land-ownership and the power of big money".[331] Influenced by Marxism, during the revolution Mandela advocated scientific socialism,[332] although he denied being a communist during the Treason Trial.[333] Biographer David James Smith thought this untrue, stating that Mandela "embraced communism and communists" in the late 1950s and early 1960s, though was a "fellow traveller" rather than a party member.[334] In the 1955 Freedom Charter, which Mandela had helped create, it called for the nationalisation of banks, gold mines, and land, believing it necessary to ensure equal distribution of wealth.[335] Despite these beliefs, Mandela nationalised nothing during his presidency, fearing that this would scare away foreign investors. This decision was in part influenced by the fall of the socialist states in the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc during the early 1990s.[

"Every political or military leader of every persuasion is a dangerous sociopath."

For once I agree 100% with Putin--just shut up...

"He could have followed in the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi advocating nonviolent rebellion,"

Yeah...Gandhi was a saint, making racist remarks against Africans and excluding Muslims from his view of an idealized India (and rural one at that--India's industrialization and subsequent rise from tattered famine-ridden nation to rising economic powerhouse owes no thanks to Gandhi.)

Which is NOT to take away from the good work Gandhi DID do...

He just wasn't the saint you make him out to be and certainly not better than Mandela.

Both were men, both were GREAT men, despite any flaws one way or the other they might have had.

Again, BOTH men who wrote "All men are created equal," Locke and Jefferson, were totally OK with slavery...take a look at ANY leader of great importance and you'll find a black spot, be they good or bad--

JFK? Womanizer.
FDR? Japanese concentration camps.
Reagan? Not exactly friendly to the gays when the AIDS epidemic broke out.

And that's just recent American Presidents considered by some to be "great," I won't even go global lest I lock horns with Putin again over certain world leaders, since, well, it's better to present a united front against your inane and crass bashing of a great man and, even if you don't think he was great, still a man, and still not deserving of you pissing on his gravestone while the body's still warm.

@obiwanobiwan @putin33 OK I admit my "every leader is a sociopath" comment is too extreme to be 100% true. But obiwanobiwan, your comments about JFK, FDR, Reagan and (possibly) Gandhi only lend support to that idea. I wasn't implying that leaders can never have any moral achievements; I was suggesting that most leaders are far outside the norm as far as "sangfroid", ego, and risk tolerance.

"What I will remember most about Mr Mandela is that he was a man whose heart, soul and spirit could not be contained or restrained by racial and economic injustices, metal bars or the burden of hate and revenge.
"He inspired others to reach for what appeared to be impossible and moved them to break through the barriers that held them hostage mentally, physically, socially and economically.
"He taught us forgiveness on a grand scale. His was a spirit born free, destined to soar above the rainbows. Today his spirit is soaring through the heavens. He is now forever free."

Cassius Clay - 2013

People can try to use Mandela as a foil to attack Mugabe if they wish (not really surprised, conservative praise is never without conditions). But the fact of the matter is South Africa still has to deal with the land issue that Zimbabwe has dealt with head on. Continuing to let it fester is not going to solve it.

Jamiet99uk is a conservative now?

The reason South Africa is in the sort of position its in now is because of the non-racial politics and sensible economics that Mandela pursued while in power and that his successors (mostly) have stuck to. If you want to unmake that all and have one of few countries on the continent that actually has its act together become the disaster so many other African countries are then by all means follow the late Mugabe example.

Apartheid South Africa was much worse than Rhodesia. After majority rule one country's black population took revenge, the other sought reconciliation. The results are clear on which way of doing things works better.

Clear for whom?

Zimbabwe had large numbers of landless peasants and large amounts of un-utilized land being held by a handful of big farmers. They had to do something about it. Most countries have had to do something about land distribution, and after short-term pain they come out of it much better. South Africa has postponed the tough decisions but they're not going to be able to do it forever.

Your apologies for any suitably lefty and anti-Western government is beyond parody. Zimbabwe's been ruined by Mugabe's policies.

Your facile and superficial understanding of anything beyond American borders is beyond parody. Anything that cannot produce a short and sweet answer is too much work for you.

Zimbabwe has improved quite a bit the past several years. Your state department propaganda is clearly outdated.

Putin33 loves strong leaders.

Everybody is a sociopath except Tendmote, who has obviously contributed so much to civilization with his pithy comments.

This is why we can't have nice things on webDip.

Bo we have nice things on webDip. YOU'RE a nice kid. :)

Actually, I had a dream with you in it last night Bo...you looked exactly like Justin Beiber and you were trying to shoot my with a rifle at close range. But I put some awesome karate moves on you and knocked the gun from your hands and then beat you in the head with it.