which you called bullshit

I called your insults embedded in that post bullshit. Which, IMO, they are.

Your actual points? Yes. ATC said exactly that, at the very start of this whole thing. Obviously, the people who actually want to play PPSC aren't buying it.

The game incentives are totally different. If they even bore a reasonable similarity, you might have a point. But they don't.

The point is that PPSC is cancer and needs to be removed.
The whole point is that the replacements will not be the same.

they don't buy it?
good thing people can't be wrong! Guess ATC isn't wrong, I'm not wrong, and you can quit posting.

"There are decent arguments to be had, use them, not this bullshit."

TOTALLY doesn't refer to my arguments

Totally refers to the parts of your arguments where you make assumptions as to the motivation and character of people who like PPSC, as well as the nature of PPSC itself.

As for answering questions, please, answer mine. Why, would someone who wants to play PPSC, be satisfied instead to play a game with SoS or Unranked (or even DSS)?

Anyway, I expect I shall stop posting in this thread now - like ATC, I'm beginning to just repeat arguments, which is just pointless.

They won't be. That's OK. They're literally for asking for something the site doesn't offer and, as I've shown and plenty agree, shouldn't. It's not so hard to understand if you try.

Pretty fucking clear by this thread people aren't satisfied. People aren't satisfied they can't meta or multi either IDGAF

The nature of PPSC has been shown to bare plenty of time in objective and logical ways. Don't know or care about this mystical relativism where I or others can't make statements about things.

Seeing as you've asked the same question at least three times, which I've answered every time, yeah, might want to stop posting due to repetition.

If your argument is that it is wrong in principle for webDiplomacy to offer PPSC then there is no arguing against that; it is a question of opinion. But then don't expect to convince anyone.

It's been laid out in a very plain fashion multiple times WHY people think that. It's not mysterious. It's not out of thin air. This is not equivalent to "my favorite colour is blue".

I don't expect to convince everyone, you can't force a horse to drink water you lead it to.

But we can refresh.

-It's inconsistent with itself
-It's inconsistent with the entire rest of the online hobby at large (you can exclude Vdip here if you want, notice ATC didn't bother)
-It's inconsistent with the entire rest of the F2F hobby
-It's arbitrary (SOS, DSS, Carnage, all come from established, consistent design philosophy behind them. Where does 1/2 for the winner come from?)
-It incentives purposely losing behavior
-It rewards points not just non-intuitively, but COMPLETELY outside or reverse of expectations at times, see Jeff Kuta's post.
-Keeping it as a 4th option fragments the player base (think this argument is inconsistent with have variants? It is! There's a reason, IMO, the site doesn't just import more variants, even the stable or (supposedly) balanced ones)

These are not "no arguing against [it]". Nor are these "a question of opinion".

As to the former, they are clearly arguable. They are falsifiable, discussible. Notice how we argued/discussed it was inconsistent? (which, even when I bring that up, mysteriously vanished as a feature rather than a bug)

Is it a matter of opinion that it is not consistent with itself? not consistent with the entire rest of the Diplomacy community? that it did not have a unified design theory? That it incentives purposely losing? That it results in non-intuitive or downright absurd outcomes? Do you think they are "opinions" because people can (wrongly) disagree? Because it's not a physical measurement? This is not a discussion about what the best breed of cat is, they are not those types of opinions.

The ability of someone to go "no, I disagree" doesn't make a matter a relativistic unknowable opinion matter.

AUUGGGGHHHHH

I disagree with your assertion that just because PPSC isn't the way the game is 'supposed' to be played means it needs to be deleted from the site. If of course we were arguing to introduce PPSC to this site I would disagree with that. But we are talking about reducing the choice of players who don't agree with you. Is it fair to them when they are as much a user of the site as you?

Of course the site is owned by kestas and zultar. It is their decision in the end. This is not a democracy. But I am very disappointed by this decision and even more disappointed by the vitriol that has come from supporters of the decision, especially you. I believe you should be above that.

Yeah, well, I tried to be silent and I did real good for a long time. And all that happened was that people spit vitriol at ATC and the mods unabated so it's not like they returned the favor.

Let's meet in the middle and make Ankara Crescent available.

If it wasn't clear what my answer would be...
"Is it fair to them when they are as much a user of the site as you?"
Yes. Because what they are asking for is actively harmful and can't defend other than with "other things are not equivalent" and "I want it anyways" or "I want to get/give points to losers" which has been addressed.

Imagine someone petitioned to have DSS removed. And we had the same discussion. You think it would end the same? You think the same arguments could be made? This is not a symmetrical question/event. It's not "I get to choose what other people get to play", it's "I get to agree/petition that things that are actively harmful are removed even if some people like it / only like it". People keep trying to distance PPSC from the general act of removing something, but that's not how it works.

This is eerily similar to when Thorfi said "just because you don't like it doesn't make it inconsistent". No, the fact it's inconsistent does.

I'm not saying it should be removed because I don't like it, I'm saying it should be removed because it's harmful. There's a correlation there sure, but one comes before the other.

I don't like Public Press. I'm not advocating anytime it be removed. I like DSS over SoS, but there's no reason to advocate removing SoS because it's not harmful.

Does this make sense? Am I not articulating a particular part of this clearly?

I think then that we disagree on whether PPSC is actively harmful to the site. Let us agree to disagree and end this discussion. You have made many points about why PPSC debases the ranking systems. I believe it is not nearly bad enough to warrant its removal. There is no compromise to be had here.

Valis, you're out of order. You're allowing your commitment to getting rid of PPSC to degrade your arguments by using intemperate and abusive language. Spamming the thread like this is equivalent to shouting loudly. It's neither clever, nor acceptable. I am not repeating my arguments and posts; Kestas has my views and it's up to him now.

But if you believe improving the site involves having a credible (by your lights) rating system, then it would be more defensible to have a single ratings system. I'd have a lot of sympathy if this was what was WTA. WTA has the benefit, if you trawl back in time to the UK PBM stats of being precisely the system that Richard and I ran in the late 80s and 90s. A single unified method is very much easier for the punter to understand.

As for, by implication, denigrating Oli's efforts and work in that decidedly illiberal manner, you are completely out of order.

I have rarely paid any attention to scoring systems and play the same way in pretty much every game I've been in, but some things seem clear to me.

There are significant numbers of members to this site who are both intelligent and reasonable and rather like PPSC.

There is no good reason to get rid of PPSC aside from some vague notion of embarrassment when comparing our site to other outposts of the community. Pretentious wine, much? We are diplomacy players, damn it. When have we ever given two hoots about what other people think of us?

What should have happened is for the new scoring systems to have been announced with justifiable fanfare and, if they were indeed vastly superior, PPSC allowed to wither and die over a year or so and removed without opposition. Or, alternatively, allowed to continue to exist if it remains popular.

This entire argument has been extremely divisive, and is completely unnecessary. I have found it all extremely depressing. I hope that the site establishment, who on the whole do an excellent job, have learned the lessons of their mistakes here.

If you're doing an experiment and find a negative result, that doesn't mean you made a mistake. A negative result is an educational result as well.

This thread is exhausting and probably a waste of everyones time.
If Webdip wants peoples opinions in an actionable way, they should run a survey with questions which are straightforward and actionable.

This thread is a ridiculous 535 comments long most of which are the same dozen people blithering on. Its too convoluted to be actionable nor is it really a reflection of the community as a whole...just the Forum Monsters opinions.

Lol! By that logic, Steephie, you could define everything you do as an experiment and claim to lead a life completely free of mistakes :p.

The idea has merit ;)

I would like someone who favors keeping PPSC to explain why they think the scoring system makes any sense at all. The only explanation ever given is "award my ally" or "strong second".

Is there anything more substantive than that?

I wouldn't mind hearing someone explain why suddenly removing a non-default scoring system without any consideration for the people using it makes sense. How is it impinging on anyone or anything?

My 1-year-old, Jane, is a messy eater. When she's done with a meal, she tosses everything on the floor. Plus, there's food all over her. My wife and I clean her up, but sometimes the food on her high chair and the floor sits for a while. It's tough keeping up with two small kids.

Now, I'd never eat that leftover food, because that's disgusting. Jane sometimes does, though. Eventually, my wife and I get around to cleaning it up, and Jane usually complains. It's possible that she thinks she's a squirrel.

Why should we clean up something that she clearly enjoys eating? Well, because it's bad for her.

How's that, you heretic?

At least you have a sense of humor. If we were playing PPSC you'd get a few points, but since we're playing WTA, you get none.

PPSC lives matter, God Dammit.