Lulz. So many of the posters here have smugly condescended that Trump won't do any of the things he promised.

Now that Trump is keeping his word and doing things, they are spazzing out.

Delicious! God bless you Donald.

The EPA is under the executive branch, headed by President Trump. It is not allowed to contradict him, just as an employee wouldn't be allowed to contradict his boss.

I mean we expected him to be a rational human being who respected the opinions of experts when given responsibility.

No you didn't, Vashta. You and other liberals have always thought of him as a maniac. You are only saying this now because you're unhappy with him doing what you always knew he would do.

It was wishful thinking, Anyway, can't wait to see that approval rating tank below it's already terrible starting point.

Well this certainly spiraled out of control fast. I didn't quite expect Condescension to go off the deep end like that.

Anyway I'd like to issue you an apology ND for calling into question your professionalism as an instructor. I stand by my other statements but that one was unnecessary and detracted from the argument.

And for the record I am not a dire hard liberal as you have so readily assumed. Not agreeing with Trump doesn't automatically mean you hate conservatism. Trump isn't a republican, he isn't even a conservative. He's a populist who took advantage of a vulnerable party platform to stoke fear and win votes. To say he will push forward Republican ideals is wishful thinking from a party that's become accustom to playing the defense game these past eight years and is eager to strike back. Neo-conservatism is not the same thing as conservatism same as neo-liberalism is not the same as liberalism.

President Trump is a true-to-the-form paleoconservative. In other words, far more conservative than any neocon like Paul Ryan can hope to be.

I'll take Paul Ryan over Trump any day.

*Says something really important that changes peoples lives and opinions which eventually spreads far and wide enough to reach the white house. Trump falls to his knees with repentant tears and stops promoting a less responsive and trustworthy government.*

You keep excusing govt agencies being suppressed by claiming its standard workplace procedure.

This is not standard at all. There is no reason why we should suddenly stop learning when there are ecoli outbreaks, climate change data, or pollution in the air

If Obama had told the military 'hey guys, we could get bin laden but lets just get gay with each other instead. is that just normal? Do what the boss says right.

Trump has no business making mandates or decisions on behalf of federal agencies that report directly tp the CDC, FDA and dept of agriculture. Hes not qualified for 1

Ignore ND, follow these guys instead
https://twitter.com/AltNatParkSer/status/824070855206600710

"ND, you know solar power creates more jobs in the US than coal, oil and gas combined right? You can hardly blame the EPA for killing jobs that are obsolete.

Adapt or perish, isn't that what the beloved free market is all about? Frankly, even with these ridiculous gag orders you should be investing heavily in renewables. Trump can supress the facts about climate change but he can't suppress the economics of renewables. Coal no longer makes sense when the cost per kWh is higher than renewables. Those jobs are never coming back, but there's a huge opportunity to create more jobs and better energy security forever."

The cost of solar energy generation is actually still much higher than the cost of generating energy from coal or natural gas (http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/studies/levelized-cost-of-new-generating-technologies/). This is also in spite of the facts that solar has been receiving generous aid from government tax incentives for people installing it along with tax holidays to solar companies themselves, and the solar companies are charging such low prices that most of them can't even turn a profit at the current prices. Hear about Solyndra and SunEdison? Yeah, they're not around anymore and Solar City was heading for bankruptcy as well before Tesla snatched them up at a fire sale price. A huge amount of the decrease in the cost that has occurred in the cost of solar energy is that the price of silicon as plummeted, a main component for manufacturing PV cells. The technology will eventually be developed to make solar cost competitive with traditional energy sources, but it is still a long way coming.

The reason for coal's decline in the U.S., even while it has been on the rise in other parts of the world, is that natural gas has simply become cost competitive with coal in recent years when it previously was not (It also didn't help that the federal government was restricting the amount of coal that utilities could burn either). That's where the majority of the energy previously supplied by coal is now coming from in the U.S.

If you want to make the argument for using solar on the basis that it is better for the environment, have at it. But it in no way makes more economic sense to be using it instead of cheaper traditional sources of energy. Just think about it, wouldn't utilities be using solar instead to increase their own profits if it was cheaper since the cost of their product would be less?

Brainbomb, do not worry.
Yesterday President Flump signed an executive order abolishing e-coli. It no longer exists.
Tomorrow he will sign an executive order to build a wall around America to keep out the climate.
#alternativefacts

Congratulations everyone, a conspiracy theorist with an undiagnosed personality disorder is in charge of everything!!! Hooray!!! What could possibly go wrong!!!!?????

I go to sleep and this thread has gained 10 pages. It's like mafia :O

I think a lot of what you hear from the FDA, for example, is bullcrap. I am a huge proponent of raw milk. The science is on my side. Yet, the FDA claims it is hazardous and uses Nazi storm troopers to bust businesses that sell it across State lines. Same for the FDA position on health claims by nut companies. Shutting down websites,etc. They facilitate the big pharma monopoly. That's all their purpose really is. They are getting their comeuppance and it is well deserved. Too long we have been subjected to Government propaganda. It's time it stopped. Good.

Secondly, the climate change scientists, whose data is proven corrupt and flawed, have actually been the people silencing the minority expert opinions that man's impact on global warming is minimal. Why shouldn't their voices be shut down for a while? I think a lot of their claim is an attempt to gain more control over our personal lives by forcing us to use energy in a way so that they can control us. Really, why does the government does need to be in the business of taking sides of a scientific debate?

Hurrah for HR, who was the sun that evaporated condensation!

Probably because private research wouldn't fund it.

Like Mark Twain said, it's much easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled. I often employ this fact during diplomacy matches. It seems to have bleeded into the forums quite badly.

^ Have you ever read Plato's allegory of the cave? It's pretty standard reading in schools nowadays but I think it's a time tested allegory that applies very much to modern day society. I suppose you could use it to support one side or the other but in general I think it is at the least thought provoking.

I think it'd be far more productive for everyone who HASN'T read the Allegory of the Cave to +1 this post.

@ reasonable claims: "
If you want to make the argument for using solar on the basis that it is better for the environment, have at it. But it in no way makes more economic sense to be using it instead of cheaper traditional sources of energy. Just think about it, wouldn't utilities be using solar instead to increase their own profits if it was cheaper since the cost of their product would be less?"

That may well be so (i haven't looked at the data on how cost effective pv has become) BUT there is still an economic incentive for investing in it. If you look at the long/medium term. You actually want the US to be able to produce cheap solar power. Otherwie China will become the largest global producer of photovoltaics and will generate wealth of the future.

How you get sufficient investment may be a harder question. Government subsidies, grants and tax breaks may encourage private research.

A carbon tax on oil/gas/coal may push the price of those polluting options up (if you don't like tax breaks etc.) - and this option doesn't force any particular reaearch option, it lets people who want to invest in research choose to try whatever they think will work best... (Plus no paper work)

Direct spending and investment by the government on new tech - which is pretty much what the pentagon does for new military tech - would drive the economy, as it has done for years.

I would argue the sound environmental reasoning, but the like of ND don't care. So here is the good economics of this medium to lon term planning.

So I read in the NY Times that the 'censorship' or order to refrain from public information postings that started this thread were identical to the ones Obama issued eight years ago when he took over from bush

Also California says it will launch its own satelite to collect important climate data (see the end of this article) http://mashable.com/2017/01/24/trump-administration-gag-order-epa-usda/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link#yc4DIDGdfiql

So much for fairness and evenhandedness