I shouldn't be surprised that you continue to ignore the "realisation that there is no God by the whisky priest" .
Self deception holds strong in you Crazy Anglican

I didn't ignore it at all:

"Both are part of why I find your brand of philosophy/theology (you haven't been clear as to whether you're an atheist or not) to be depressing. You seem yourself to realize that people could very well be happier not embracing what you you believe might be the truth."

You think that there is not God (no, you do not know and cannot make an unqualified statement there. If you can, then support your claim with evidence. Otherwise the only person that can be demonstrated to have deceived himself is you. I have made no claim asserting the absolute existence of God. I have merely said I have faith in him. You are the one not allowing for the slightest possibility that you might be wrong. That isn't theology; its just basic argumentative writing.)

I dealt with your suppostion, what is your evidence to back it up? Can you offer definitive proof to support your absolutist position?

Now I can guess that you might want to do two things here:

#1 Invoke Paschal's Wager and try to find fault with it. (THe problem here is that I am nowhere near Paschal's Wager, we aren't even talking about an afterlife much less the consequences of it.)

#2 Try to assert that the burden of proof is mine (not yours based on your estimation of which claim about the existence of God is more outlandish.) THe problem here is that I didn't make a claim about the existence of God. If fact I freely admit that there is a chance that He doesn't exist. Merely making the statement "I have faith in God" assumes that chance. I don't have faith in my son's existence, I just saw him a moment ago. So, I rather say "I know my son exists".

That being said, you seem to me just from the tone of your writing and that fact that I the only interactions I have observed between you and others (Octavious, Steephie, Mujus, IshamelG, etc.) consists to lashing out and insults to absolute strangers. That may just be random trolling, but I don't see you as a very happy person. Especially with your assessment of the tragedy associated with loss of faith.

Thus I welcome you to consider inviting Christ into your life. The forgiveness that He offers, The ability to let go of the stress to be "perfect", The membership in a worldwide community of believers and a world of resources committed to helping others. It would all do you good. Putting a personal relationship with God foremost in your life would only make it more so. It is your choice.


@ KC

Sorrt brother I didn't mean to insinuate that you were blaspheming, it was just the converse of the argument in support of Mujus.


@ everyone

Happy 2nd Sunday of Advent!

@ MM

"Self deception holds strong in you Crazy Anglican."

No, rather. The faith is strong in my family. My grandmother had it. My father had it. My brothers have it. I am a Christian; like my father before me.

Okay yeah, that last one was for the brothers here :-D

The rest of the argument is for you though MM. I believe that you could benefit from finding a place for God in your life. Even if you truly believed that there is no existence after your death. Why on Earth would you embrace a stance that you acknowledge brings you misery?

Or now are you going to back track and say what a happy guy you are in spite of your words to the contrary and lashing out at others?

Isaiah 40:1-11New Living Translation (NLT)

Comfort for God’s People

40:1 “Comfort, comfort my people,”
says your God.
2 “Speak tenderly to Jerusalem.
Tell her that her sad days are gone
and her sins are pardoned.
Yes, the Lord has punished her twice over
for all her sins.”

3 Listen! It’s the voice of someone shouting,
“Clear the way through the wilderness
for the Lord!
Make a straight highway through the wasteland
for our God!
4 Fill in the valleys,
and level the mountains and hills.
Straighten the curves,
and smooth out the rough places.
5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
and all people will see it together.
The Lord has spoken!”[a]

6 A voice said, “Shout!”
I asked, “What should I shout?”
“Shout that people are like the grass.
Their beauty fades as quickly
as the flowers in a field.

7 The grass withers and the flowers fade
beneath the breath of the Lord.
And so it is with people.
8 The grass withers and the flowers fade,
but the word of our God stands forever.”

9 O Zion, messenger of good news,
shout from the mountaintops!
Shout it louder, O Jerusalem.[b]
Shout, and do not be afraid.
Tell the towns of Judah,
“Your God is coming!”
10 Yes, the Sovereign Lord is coming in power.
He will rule with a powerful arm.
See, he brings his reward with him as he comes.
11 He will feed his flock like a shepherd.
He will carry the lambs in his arms,
holding them close to his heart.
He will gently lead the mother sheep with their young.

Footnotes:
a. 40:3-5 Greek version reads He is a voice shouting in the wilderness, / “Prepare the way for the Lord’s coming! / Clear a road for our God! / Fill in the valleys, / and level the mountains and hills. / And then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, / and all people will see the salvation sent from God. / The Lord has spoken!” Compare Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4-6.
b. 40:9 Or O messenger of good news, shout to Zion from the mountaintops! Shout it louder to Jerusalem.

The full chapter is here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+40&version=NLT

Something happened. I believe in God. It's confusing a bit to me right now, but liberating. For the first time in my life I actually feel I have a purpose.

You misrepresent my statements and produce illogical nonsense
What in the blue blazes makes you think I'm some miserable, dissatisfied fool ?
All things considered I've had a great time in my life so far.
Thanks to modern science I've lived in the age of anti biotics, otherwise I would be long dead from syphilis or the pox, and now the performance enhancing drugs allow me to regularly give her indoors and the occasional young lady on the side a thorough pantsing.
Art, theatre, literature are so readily available, I can go surf, play golf or hockey when I like.
I've been playing "golden oldies" hockey the last two seasons with some of the chaps I used to play a grade field, not ice hockey with years ago.
We play on artificial pitches that have beautiful billiard table like surfaces, and full facilities for hot showers, ice baths etc, and we won the premiership in 2014, so I've got another premiership medallion, and had fantastic fun and camaraderie.
You expect me to whine about seeing some brothers in arms get chopped up or the hardships that are a inevitable part of life, you are deluding yourselves.
Losing others I've loved, now dead and gone.
You fools, yeah I get sad when I miss them, but I also remember the good times with them and smile through a few tears, and celebrate their lives.

Eternal life ? Not for me thank you
Oblivion will suit me to a tee

You expect me to prove the non existence of a God ?
That is the height of illogical and deluded thinking.
You're the jokers who claim this God's existence, then the onus is on you to produce the proof, and we'll have none of this " the Bible tells me so " rubbish

Faith that a God exists is not proof that she does exist.

Demonstrable, testable proof.
Eg actually produce the God and we'll observe her produce a Sea of molten lava or similar.

All the evidence so far shows that men and women create the God myths,
and that God's do not create anything, they are an abstract ideologival tool used to create confusion and division, subjugation of the vulnerable by an exploitative elite group, or groups, the priests, political rulers etc

If you want to embrace superstitions, then off you go, knock yourselves out.
Just don't expect me to salute when you parade this nonsense publicly

I respect all those who fought against Nazi tyranny, because they fought nazi tyranny. NOT because they were Christians communists,liberal Democrats, Tories good people, bad people whatever they were.

And their were plenty of really nasty chacters who fought the Nazis,
So I say OK you fought this evil tyranny, good stuff, but that doesn't excuse your other crimes

You call it faith, I call it self deception,
You say towmartow, I say termatta
You say potaytow, I say pootartwo

If you want to pray for something for me,
Then go with, FedEx or a similar dutiful functionary are / is about to deliver a few boxes of docs and a nice fat cheque, because the Almighty mm obviously has too much spare time at present,which is why he's ginning about like a whore at a wedding

Because then you not so much as praying for me as praying for yourselves.
Deliver unto him something to remove his pestilential attention from us

You don't have to believe in God as long as you are a good person. False prophets will tell you otherwise. God does exist to help those that believe in Him to be good people. He shines a light on the good in humanity while we obsess over the bad.

Why are you offended by someone else's belief in God? You equate someone else's belief with a desire to make you believe because many do just that. The true believers in God know that people can get to heaven without explicitly believing in Him.

All you need is faith in humanity, a hard thing to come by these days.

Does anyone else reading this thread get an urge to check whether they've accidently muted someone?

I don't believe in muting people

@y2k, very glad to hear you feel you are in a better place. Having a purpose is always good.

@CA, nah, you're fine, don't worry about it.

Does anyone else feel like MM is the atheist version of krellin?

@ MM (I said)
“Now I can guess that you might want to do two things here:

…

#2 Try to assert that the burden of proof is mine (not yours based on your estimation of which claim about the existence of God is more outlandish.) THe problem here is that I didn't make a claim about the existence of God. If fact I freely admit that there is a chance that He doesn't exist. Merely making the statement "I have faith in God" assumes that chance.”



Then you said these things [my commentary on each will be in brackets]
“You expect me to prove the non existence of a God?" [No, I expect you to support your absolutist claim that there is no God. Even Dawkins admits a chance that He exists; so changing your stance to a more reasonable one isn’t exactly surrendering]


"That is the height of illogical and deluded thinking." [I’ll come back to this.]


"You're the jokers who claim this God's existence, then the onus is on you to produce the proof, …" [I told you up front I made no such claim. I said that joining the Christian community would do you a world of good and I stand by that. ]

So, back to this.

“That is the height of illogical and deluded thinking.”

[Wow, you walked right into that one and still claim that you are the one with a rock solid grasp on logic?]

I reiterate, you’re fun. I like you. :-)

@MM

"What in the blue blazes makes you think I'm some miserable, dissatisfied fool ?"

#1 You're in this thread. I would think an entirely commited atheist would have little interest in it. I certainly wouldn't enter a Daily Qu'ran thread. Oh I might read since I ma interested in the literature, but I probably wouldn't comment since I haven' t the slightest interest in becoming a Muslim. I have a basic respect for the beliefs of others and try not to interfere. Yet, if someone delivers himself to me in the context of a religious thread, then sure. I will do what I can to help. It is only courteous. That is basically my ground for dissatisfied, you're checking out the competition.

2) As for miserable, remember the only contact I have had with you is what I have read in these two threads. I have observed, as I stated earlier, that you seem to dwell on this theme of misery and tragedy [Nazis, whiskey priests, etc] and that you tend to be abrasive with other people (insulting them and the like). That to me is not how a happy person behaves. So, based on the evidence I have seen, I made a judgement. Nothing more; nothing less.

I called that second one way before you ever made it too :-)


Remember I said-
"Or now are you going to back track and say what a happy guy you are in spite of your words to the contrary and lashing out at others?"

You want an experiment?

Okay, I challenge you, Go to church for a year. Take the time to find a good group of people that you are comfortable with and attend. Don't worry about believeing a single word of it, but don't argue. Just listen and make an honest attempt to be part of the community. Keep a daily journal of your emotional state over that year. I guarantee that it will not be all sunshine and daisies, but look a trends. Then come back and tell me definitively that no God worked through your actions throughout that year.

I am not talking about your old experience with Mom and Dad forcing you to go. I mean make an honest attempt to try it on your own terms. If you are so happy and committed as you say you are than it could do absolutely no harm, and you might come back with something that we could all listen to with equanimity.

@ MM

It is funny in an ironic sort of way that you say without science you might have died of a venereal disease or the pox; when Alexander Fleming and Edward Jenner were both Christians. I'm sure that you will claim that they may have done their great work in spite of (or at least with no particular credit to Christianity), but can you find any quotes from those men to support this? Christians do often credit Christ as inspiration for their works. Science was absolutely the vehicle, but Christianity could most certainly the the gas it ran on :-)

"I am not surprised that men are not grateful to me; but I wonder that they are not grateful to God for the good which he has made me the instrument of conveying to my fellow creatures."

Edward Jenner (http://www.sciography.com/edward-jenner.htm )