"You're forgetting the reality of the time. The men were the economic engine of their community. In a Bronze Age agricultural society the women and children would have perished anyway (and in a slower and much more agonizing way) if every Amalekite was killed."
That's horrible, horrible, *horrible* moral reasoning. "You're going to die anyway so we might as well kill you now so you can at least cut your losses and die quickly?" Why don't we put a bullet in everyone's heads right now, given the inevitability of physical death, so as to spare everyone the possibly worse death of starving or disease? Freaking listen to yourself - this is *disgusting.*
"The choice was let them continue marauding and killing non-combatants fighting as they had for the 230 years, or put an end to it."
Nah, sorry, when you've got an almighty God that can literally do anything, there's no such thing as a dichotomy. There's always some other option. I posited one already - why didn't God convince them not to commit genocide? An all-knowing being definitionally knows what would convince a person not to do X action, and an all-powerful being necessarily can act and convince that person not to do X action. This does not compromise free will. I don't see any problem with this solution, in fact. It certainly strikes me as being better than the senseless wholesale slaughter of innocent people just because "that's how it was back then."
"Genocide is your term not mine and you have yet to offer any evidence that this is what happened. There were Amalekites in the Bible well after this incident. Massacre, yeah, genocide not quite. Take a look at what the supposedly much more civilized Iron Age Romans did to the Carthaginians, and it only took them 113 years to get around to that. That was much more aptly considered genocide, although it falls short too. If it can be done in one battle by armies that are pretty much evenly matched, it probably can't be considered genocide. Like I said that's obi's perjoritive term for this event. It just doesn't apply in any real sense. It was not a systematic attempt to wipe out an entire people."
Yes, it was. You said yourself the explicit aim of the endeavor was to destroy the Amalekites so as to prevent them from harming Israel again. That is a systematic attempt to wipe out an entire people. And the fact that it didn't completely succeed doesn't make it not a genocide! That would make the Holocaust not a genocide, for goodness' sake. It may be obi's term and not yours, but he's right - this is genocide.
"Basically you're offering is a damned of you do and damned if you don't tautology. God was a bully for letting the Hebrews kill those poor Amalekites. THEN God was a sociopath for letting the Amalekites kill those poor Hebrews. Why didn't He wave a magic wand and make all of these people directly dependent upon His intervention to know when they were doing right and wrong?"
Frankly, that solution, as absurd as it's made to sound, would be preferable to status quo, where people like me, who earnestly and honestly follow what we believe to be right, and, though imperfect, don't do any serious harm to anyone, end up burning in the fires of hell for eternity because a God we honestly couldn't convince ourselves to believe exists, who doesn't conclusively make it clear that he exists, actually did and does exist. Hell yeah I'd rather have him whispering in my ear or showing up in a flash in the sky every time I'm going to do something wrong. Don't you think that would be FAR superior to two tribes committing acts of massacre and genocide against one another?
"Why didn't He make them perfect to begin with? etc. etc."
Why not? I don't think you'd deny that there is at least room to doubt that God exists, that it's not some ironclad demonstrable thing like gravity. When one's eternal life is quite literally on the line, why would a loving God leave ANY room for doubt?
"The logic in what I'm saying isn't backward at all. God apparently desires people to follow the rules of their own accord."
...but he doesn't punish on an individual basis. The women and children that were slaughtered didn't carry out any acts of genocide or massacre on the Israelite population. This is group punishment to its absolute extreme. When one person doesn't follow the rules of his own accord, someone *else* who *wasn't* hurting people gets killed too? That should be absolutely intolerable for a perfect being.
"With the full knowledge that killing all of the men would be to kill all of the women and children anyway exposing them to starvation, bandits, etc."
Holy shit you don't get to decide that. This is so twisted and disgusting. Why do you or the Israelites get to decide unilaterally that these innocent people would probably die from X or Y cause and that killing them would be less painful, thus it's okay to kill them? Maybe some of them wouldn't die. Maybe they'd make it to a neighboring tribe and be welcomed in. Might not be especially likely, but why do you get to decide this? And yes, this even applies to God. Aggression, even if it would result in a less painful termination of one's life than an alternative, is wrong. This is HORRIBLE. How do you guys seriously defend this?
"Why does God, who supposedly unleashed Holy revenge upon these people, forbid te Hebrews from taking the stuff of the Amalekites. Isn't that pretty much genocide 101? Kill 'em and take their stuff?"
You defined it yourself earlier, and your definition of genocide didn't include plunder. Plunder might accompany genocide (and usually does, as there's no one else to whom the possessions would be left), but the principal aspect of genocide is the killing, not the resultant plunder. Think of the Holocaust - sure, the Nazis took the Jews' possessions, but they weren't exterminating the Jews to take the Jews' stuff, they were exterminating the Jews to exterminate the Jews. So no, their genocide doesn't suddenly become less bad because they didn't take property.
"God, who is perfectly aware of morality, is requiring it of His people even in that barbaric time."
So he's requiring morality of his people... by allowing them to commit genocide, but preventing them from also plundering. All that demonstrates for the "new world order" is that genocide coupled with plunder is unacceptable. But when your "new world order" is brought about with genocide, you can't genuinely claim that the new world order doesn't condone genocide in some way or another.
"Yes, God was leading the Hebrews away from Bronze Age barbarism and toward the appearance of Christ. Not by waving a wand, but by allowing them the experiences upon which they could base their morality."
Yeah, and fuck all the people that got butchered for them to be "allowed those experiences," huh? Are they not people too?
"The only way to read the Amalekites and see an endorsement of slaughter is to ignore the context of the times in favor of a 21st [sic] Century fantasy."
But here's the big problem. Like I said in response to SC's point, I do understand the context of the times. The Bronze Age was barbaric in its conduct of warfare - a slightly repetitive statement since war is barbaric anyway, but relative to modern standards it is on another level of barbarism. I get that. I can accept that the Old Testament God is as vengeful and barbaric as the people of the OT.
What I don't understand is how I can't apply a 21st century moral outlook to that God, though. After all, Christianity asserts that God has always been good. Good by what standard? It has to be the most rigorous standard at any point in time. Now, evaluating which standard at any point in time is the 'most rigorous' is hard to do, I admit - but what logically follows is that in evaluating God one should prefer a more rigorous standard to a less rigorous standard. In our case, a 21st century standard over a Bronze Age standard. The God that commands a genocidal campaign against Amalek undeniably fails the 21st century standard. Thus, that God cannot be considered "good." That's what I've come to conclude - but, as I'll explain in response to FlemGem below, I would like to see if there's an explanation for this that doesn't lead to what I have to consider a contradiction.
"And I was dodging not because I don't think the answers are out there, but because I'm beginning to feel like I'm banging my head against a wall explaining what I believe to someone who really isn't interested in understanding."
On the contrary! I see good people here defending what is undeniably massacre of innocents and I think pretty clearly genocide. I'm extremely interested in understanding how this is reconciled! I may argue with the explanation if I think I see a contradiction, sure, but that doesn't mean I'm uninterested in the explanation, just unconvinced.
"Simple answer is this: I think God did. Genesis chapters two and three lay out the main conflict in the story. God creates man and woman living in harmony with one another and with God, with one teensy little request: please don't eat this fruit, it will kill you. Man and woman say "screw you God, we'll do what we want." The rest of the book is about God trying to bring humanity back into harmony. It's a long, rough road for everybody. Do we get the answer to all the "why" questions? Nope. We do get invited into the story, though. We can't interview Adam and Eve and ask "Why did you throw away paradise?" but we do get invited to ask ourselves, "Why did YOU throw away paradise?""
But... that's the thing. I'm trying as hard as I can to do what is right based on what I'm able to perceive. The short answer is that I *did not choose* to throw away paradise. Any divergence from God's idea of what is right is due to my limitations in being able to understand his existence and his idea of morality.
Nor, do I think, did the Amalekites who didn't participate in slaughtering the Israelites choose to throw away paradise either. To argue that you would have to say that in the face of incontrovertible proof of God's existence these Amalekites chose to deny him. The Bible doesn't say that this is so. I don't even know how many women and children there were, let alone who they were, let ALONE their reasons for not believing in the OT God or not following his commands or what have you. Nor, I would imagine, do you. And if you don't know this, you can't pass the judgment that they chose to reject Him.
"Are you really suggesting that Amalekite non-combatants couldn't have left alongside them if they'd wanted?"
So what you're now saying, unless I misunderstand, is that the Israelites gave the Amalekite noncombatants the choice to die or to leave. Never mind that this is in direct contradiction to the earlier notion that the Israelites chose to kill the Amalekites outright so they wouldn't die of worse causes later, in some perverse notion of mercy - are you really saying the noncombatants elected to die? Because that's the logical conclusion of the implied statement behind your question that the Amalekite noncombatantss had the choice to leave. And I'd like a little more evidence of this... as I find it quite the difficult explanation to believe.