A date which will live in infamy.

@Krellin - Even if America had an "economic stranglehold on resources valuable to the Japanese," such a stranglehold need not be seen as in any sense a sufficient cause for the Japanese attack. You might say that the US contributed to the conditions which made the attack on Pearl Harbor a sensible and desirable thing from a Japanese perspective, but that cannot be construed as implying causation. The cause of an action is always in the agent who performs the action, and so we must say that the cause of the attack was the Japanese government and military command.

But rallinator, the same arguments have been used by some elements to suggest that the US "caused" the 9/11 attacks.

Well the US embargo caused the attack, that isn't a question and all Historians agree. But its stupid to extrapolate the US "caused" the attacks. The Japanese had a choice, stop the aggressive conquest of china or withdraw because of lack of resources. Thy chose the former. That caused Pearl Harbor.

Kinda weird being here on the day...

The controversial assertion is whether top brass and FDR knew and let it happen, which I think is hogwash.

Santa - you appear to have contradicted yourself. Our (US) actions caused the attack, but we (the US) didn't cause the attack?

I of course agree that Japan was backed in to a corner, and could have chosen to discontinue it's war against China - obvious. But might that not have put them in a weakened position such that China might mount a counter-offensive against them? Thus their hand was forced?

I haven't contradicted myself at all. The effects of the embargo forced Japan into a decision (a cause of the attack). The decision though was the Japanese juntas' alone (the proximate cause). There was no consideration that the Chinese would follow them back to Japan. If you mean they were worried they would lose their conquests in Japan, sure. Should have thought of that before trying to make them. Then again the Japanese military junta wasn't known for its strategic decisions, ex. Pearl Harbor.

*conquests in china

"The effects of the embargo forced Japan into a decision..." did the US know this decision would be made, or could they have predicted it? Had we done anything to mediate between Japan and China? Not really..in fact, US military personnel were in China fighting the Japanese. Who's to say what might have happened in the region if Japan were suddenly crippled economically and militarily.

If it can be said that we could not have predicted that Japan would attack the US, then it can likewise be said that it can not be predicted as to whether or not some power would have taken advantage of Japans weakness. Thus, Japan was forced by necessity to act in order to - at a minimum - maintain it's strength. Thus you could surmise that the US could have at least understood the possibility of a scenario in which we went to war with Japan.

So the US pulled the trigger (the embargo) put wasn't responsible for the bullet's path. A shot in the dark...which unfortunately ricocheted in to our exposed belly.

Are there parallels to 9/11?

They knew what it could cause Japan to do, US preparations in the Pacific showed that crystal clear. They were fortifying the Philippines and packing Pearl with as many ships as they could (and more). But it doesn't follow that the Japanese were forced into acting as they did. In fact there was dissent in the Japanese junta most notably from the man who planned Pearl Harbor. In addition the embargo wasn't the first action the US tried to stop the war in China. It was the final action in a string of actions.

OK....if you put your finger on a gun, know where it is aiming and then pull the trigger, you are the cause of the results. The US caused the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Well you are entitled to you opinion

It's not my opinion. It's a discussion point. I have not stated my opinion.

By extension, then, you think the US has no culpability in the 9/11 Terrorist attack on the US (or the prior Trade Center attack a decade before)?

I'll still never forgive the Germans for that.

The trap has been clumsily baited... will anybody walk in?

It's not a trap. I'm genuinely curious to hear opinions. I'm not being hostile OR confrontational.

It is relevant to examine history, and interesting to examine attitudes of historical events and see if those beliefs/attitudes apply equally to modern history and current events.

We'll see...

Why do most countries have days of mourning for atrocities committed against them, but not atrocities they have committed against other? Seems the latter would make them less likely in the future.

Errr....because if you were in power when you committed the atrocity, you white wash the history books and pretend it didn't happen. If the governing powers at the time have since been removed, you ignore the past atrocities because your chain of power does not reach back to them, and thus you don't have to acknowledge them.

And the atomic bomb was not an atrocity..

<a-bomb...just guessing on what you were implying...>

a-bomb, wounded knee, massacre of the moravian indians during the revolution, widespread use of the "water cure" during the philippino/american war, and more....we'd have our fair share of atrocities to choose from if we cared to mourn them.

A-bomb saved more lives than it took. Fire bombing Dresden, Tokyo, etc - far more destructive to civilian property and lives. You are a victim of a poor liberal education, my friend. Yes, the US has commuted atrocities, as *all* nations have, including your precious native Americans, the Japanese, etc. Your anti-American bias in your list is predictable and, frankly, boring.

If the Americans wanted the Japanese to attack they had a funny way of showing it by not bothering to fortify Philippines properly. If the Americans had not implemented an oil embargo, it might not have mattered anyway since Japan swiftly took over the East Indies & Malaya. The real object of Japan's policy was to eject the Europeans from the Asia-Pacific region. Japan was moving against the East Indies prior to the embargo.

The A-bomb "saved" exactly zero lives since it had absolutely nothing to do with the Japanese surrender. You are a victim of indoctrination.

Funny you're calling people anti-American when you're suggesting Japan was provoked into attacking the Pacific fleet.

@Krellin, Did the US make mistakes that could have been mitigated in hindsight? Yes. Did they cause either event? No. Osama Bin laden repeatedly stated that the US involvement in the middle east was why he was attacking Americans. He said he would stop if the US pulled out. Could the US have isolated themselves from the middle east to prevent the attacks? Maybe, but it is definitely more complex then taking your ball and going home. However, the fact that the US remained involved in the middle east influenced the decision of OBL to attack the WTC again. But, the US is by no means culpable. Same thing with Pearl Harbor. The US may have known that the embargo would cause an issue, and they prepared for the worst. But, they did not cause the attack.

"Your anti-American bias in your list is predictable and, frankly, boring." It is a list of what is perceived as atrocities committed by the US so of course it is anti-american. The direction of conversation brought that up.

Krellin, I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Please don't attack my education or my political beliefs on this one, as it is an issue that I would actually like to discuss. I will start ignoring posts from you and possibly leave the thread at the first ad hominem.

Hiroshima was an industrial city with a small military base, and Nagasaki had no military base. Sure, some of their production was military, but that's true of Dresden too, and I've never seen anyone try to justify that. There was no reason to drop the bomb on a residential city when the demonstration could have been made just as easily on a larger and more remote military base, and there was certainly no reason to drop a second one (maybe if they hadn't surrendered after a month or so, sure, but not three days).