A ven - try, followed by A try - mun, in A01. 'nuff said.

And then A Mun-Sil, Sil-War. Known as "The Drunken Master" :) gameID=88685

Yes, it has. But often, it enpowers countries that get too big then. For example Russia and France. Or even Austria in a Lepanto.

Why do you think an attack on France is so difficult? Only because Austria might stab?

The drunken master? hahaha :D

Italy attacking Germany in the first year does not help Italy, it helps others. There is no real/good reason to do this. Ever.

I already noticed that it is very controversial. And honestly I would not do it either

it completely depends on the other players, a lot of the time you have to watch everyone else and wait till you can make a move in the meantime avoiding getting attacked. I personally think playing Italy takes the most skill out of the countries because you have to make sure nobody else gets to strong before you manage to create an opening for yourself.

The good reason to do so, for italy is to gain options (drunken master against russia, retreat to burgundy to invade france, or head after austria anyway) for germany it is to make him seem like less of a threat and help make friends under the cover of this fake invasion. (you can tell it is fake if army rome moves to anywhere other than venice, or if in A01 it moves to pie rather than tyr)

I am not an expert, but I seem to do well with italy usually. It requires patience, and react to what alliances are forming. I try to be the counterweight if I can, and if not, then I get my piece of the pie.

If I see Russia and turkey go after Austria, then I leave austria alone (I almost always leave austria alone to start with anyways) and wait for my chance.

Its a move done by players who do not fully understand consequences. The options you mention happen AFTER you have helped france or england or russia or all three by taking a center from germany or make him abandon belgium or holland. Threat level is not determined by the total of centers (early in game) but by the ability to attack others. Germany has many neighbors, even if he takes 2 or 3 centers in year one, he is not a threat yet, so hampering him makes no sense. And why hurt Germany who is not a threat to you? A strong Germany keeps France busy. France busy helps Italy.

As Italy, you need to be keenly aware of the balance of power on the board, moreso than any other country IMO. Your relationship with Austria can seismically shift the fortunes of everyone else on the board. Attack Austria right off the bat and you run the risk of getting steamrolled by a six or seven center Turkey with Russian help. Play the Lepanto, occupy Turkey, and risk getting stalemated in the south and rolled over by a strong Austria or getting blindsided by a fleet in Marseilles F1901.

My advice for the Italian player would be to keep your focus and not change your mind. Playing cat-and-mouse with France or Turkey means that you'll get left behind by other powers as they grow. Pick a theater and stick with it.

Italy is fun because it has so many options, and often one of the best is patience. But if it can be done, an EGI against France followed by partnering with one of them against the other is great fun. I tend to prefer partnering with Germany in the long run (that way I get Iberia early and am into the Atlantic). I have partnered with England and it can get dicey as the more successful you are against Germany, the more likely the Russian comes up the winner. And never (well almost never) attack Austria early...it just means you get eaten by the JUG next. Turkey must fall first.

The more I think about it, the more I believe Italy can be a dominant power in the game. I disagree with the claim that it is weak, or even significantly weaker than most nations. There is a plethora of ways to play it (I recall TruNinja being a fan of a more subtle Italy, I read Ora speaking of moving north right away, etc.) and just like Germany, it calls for great diplomatic skills if you're going to be a factor on the map. The one difficulty I see is that most players don't think like that. In fact, most seem to agree with TruNinja, which makes it difficult to sell them the idea that you, Italy, have much to offer them right off the bat.

Italy has to be one of my favourites: it is quite resilient and allows for so many possibilities that only the narrow mind can find it boring to play. And as far as naval powers go, I find England to be much more challenging.

Patience is the key word for Italy, I totally agree. And attacking Austria early is usually a death sentence, I agree.

I was pretty sure that i've solo'd as italy at least once, but i had to go back to 2009 to find this game: gameID=15345

You do not force germany to give up hol or bel if he agrees to give up munich instead. That extra unit in '02 makes a huge difference to italy and while in this game i got lucky (at some point i was at ~7 centers while fighting a 7 center france and a 7 center turkey - i diplomed france over to my side...) the options to invade france are better while there is still an option to work with france.

That said grabbing austria by the throat is actually a pretty good one for italy, you just need to ensure turkey or russia is interested in war with one or other... I'd advise that attack over a plain french invasion anyday...

I agree, orathaic. Rarely do I not attack Austria; I'd rather take my chances with the juggernaut losing steam early than get caught up in an unwieldy Lepanto. I hate playing the Lepanto because it is too easily countered and too often Italy can get stuck in the Turkish corner of the board with nowhere to go for several turns. Plus, the Bohemian Crusher is *so* much fun to play :)

gameID=55349 trooth demonstrating that even with an early attack on austria, and a very powerful turkey-russia - you can survive with good diplomacy (in this case to a pretty decent draw in a stalemate position...)

The Tyr opening has its weaknesses. In just one move, you trouble the peace between the central powers and might flame a 4 corner alliance because of it. My advice for people going for Munich in A01 would be to be a 100% sure you have Russia as an ally AND that you've DMZd well your territories with France. If you dont have that insurance, don't do it. I am a fan of the Alpine chicken opening (ven-pied, Rome-Ven) as it gives you *much* possibilities in A01. Most of the time, you have Austria that will shoot for Greece with his fleet and will have Grance to guess if he should bounce you in Marseilles, or stay in Spain. I find this move much more defendable to all of the other powers as you dont show your colours right off the bat. On the other hand, a move to Tyr shows your colour right away and not only do you trouble central powers peace, but you now have 2 of your natural allies (Germany and Austria), going nervous about you as you've clearly shown your intention of developping through the center of the map. You then have less diplomatic options.

But I'll say this tip, as I think it is the key to the first years in Diplomacy: go with an alliance with the player you feel the most inspired to ally with. It doesnt matter if you are I and he is G, or I and T, or R and F. Good communication should always prevail in a game no matter what. That's why I dont agree with people that have "pre-made openings" with some countries. i'd say if you enter a game and tell yourself: I will open Ven-Tri and Rome-Ven this game, before seeing if you click with Austria, there's a problem. The first years are all about gaining trust and developping good communication with your allies.

That would be my 2 cents.

In a gunboat I have always wanted to try this:
Venice-pied -tyrolia
Rome-Venice-trieste
Naples-Ionian-Tunis
I am also a fan of the standard lepanto

achillies27, that's called the Italian Shuffle. It's pretty much a diplomatic suicide since you manage to piss off everyone. I personally don't like attacking Austria in 1901, because it usually just provokes a Juggernaut. If I stab Austria, I do it once Turkey's been contained. Turkey and Italy make very awkward friends. Or I just go for France. It depends on the game.

The problem with opening to Piedmont is essentially twofold:

1) A move to Piedmont is a severe nuisance to France, but only a nuisance; you don't get centers out of it. One unit around Marseilles is all that's ever needed to deal with it, and after 1901 that will be easy for any France that isn't in the middle of dying at the hands of the E/G.

2) On the other hand, if France sends a lone fleet to annoy you, France won't get centers out of it, but it's potentially deadly. After all, you only have 4 natural units, at most two fleets - beyond that, you have to fight a winning war. Turkey will tie up at least one fleet, and often two. If France walks into Tunis, then even if you kick him out, you lose the Ionian to Turkey, which is often fatal. If France walks into the Tyrrhenian, you lose something, followed by the Ionian, which is often fatal. And to cover both takes two fleets, and you can't spare two.

In other words, annoying France is likely to provoke retaliation, and France can do a lot more damage by pestering you than the reverse. Don't annoy France unless you're prepared to do a lot more than just annoy him. :)

I haven't done the italian shuffle yet,I just would like to Try it
Also,I only dothe lepanto when I can convince turkey that in 1901 I'm just doing the opening to build up trust... And right after I convoy to Syria, in S 1903 I don't try for Smyrna... I go for the Aegean and then Smyrna in A1903 , and then I finish turkey in 1904

And, all of your points are relavent ones... Thanks

I like the move to Munich but for four reasons that I haven't seen touched upon yet.

1. The S1901 move to Tyr and Ven will usually limit Austria's early power: most austrians try and cover their own SCs. This means that first, you're not getting dwarfed by Austria right away and turned into a junior partner dependant upon their largesse, and second, that Russia and Turkey don't feel as if they have to combine out of fear.

2. If you take Munich, Germany wants you out, pronto. Therefore, the German build or builds are going to be armies. Germany building armies usually means that after they get you out of Munich, they're going to go after France, especially as England usually loves a Germany which doesn't build fleets. Additionally, this strengthens Russia's normally fairly shitty hand in Scandinavia.

3. Unless France is already bound at the hip to Germany, France is delighted that you've taken Munich. So France is probably not going to build a fleet in Marseilles right off the bat to aggravate you.

4. The extra build means you can build an extra fleet. in 1902, if you have to disband, you can choose to have 3 fleets and 1 army if it looks like you'll need it to control the med.

I really like Bob Jenkin's 'not forcing a juggernaut' to form.

Self-fullfilling italy openings are bad, imho.

In unboats always attack Austria from the get go. Once Turkey and/or Russia see you attacking Austria they will join in. Italy and Austria cannot coexist in gunboat games imo. Austria has to take Serbia and has to defend Serbia from Turkey and she cannot concetrate her defenses against an aggressive Italian attack.

^^^Absolutely not true^^^

austria in gunboat can take rumania and defend it from russia... totally different opportunity there...

@Emac I think the opposite is true. If Italy fights Austria then it's good luck to you as the Juggernaut eats you up.