You cannot hate redhouse, he's Dutch.

Can you explain what you mean by jumping on redhouse? I suspect I can unbiasedly clarify the matter, but I need to know what specifically is being referenced.

A real simple general question ...... how long has this screenshot thing been going on, it is new?
Why are experienced Diplomacy players doing this, what's the point?
I feel very naive asking these questions but I feel I'm missing something quite important, I'm glad redhouse brought it up because it's quite an interesting topic.
Why doesn't the Pres mention doing this in his EOG, I thought that was the point of the EOG on this particular game, to explain to us all why this was happening !!
Nigee

IT wasn't what redhouse was against, but how he:

Insisted his way was the only way...
Refused to seehow even legit screenshots could backfire just as easily as a legit copy and paste (i.e. nobody likes a stool pidgeon)...
Started throwing around ad hominem attacks at people who didn't agree with him...
Literally said the mods "better change the wording" of the rule (demanding, not asking)...
Continued to disagree even after two mods chimed in with unofficial statements (i.e. their personal view) that it wasn't cheating...
Refused to see that, just because he couldn't do it himself (technically challenged that he admits to being) doesn't mean it isn't fakable pretty readily by others and therefore everyone shoudl realize now that even a video of a screen could be faked, so it really isn't different than cut qand paste, just don't trust it...

It's not what he said (I happen to agree that I think screenshots are a scum bag way of doing negotiation) but how he said it and his insistence that it was already against the rules (it's not).

Scarlett Popcorn PE!!! NOW!! :-)

"jumping on redhouse": All I've really seen (which admittedly isn't much because this issue seemed messy and political so I didn't read the thread that was discussing an ongoing game, especially as it appeared full of trolls like NigeeBaby) seems to suggest that redhouse is the problem here.

However, when I looked at the game, the only person I saw pasting screenshots into the global chat was President Eden.

I presume redhouse is being criticised for creating a thread to discuss an ongoing game? But the screenshot issue certainly seems to cross a line - yet redhouse seems to be getting more flak than anyone else?

@Draugnar: Thanks. So, screenshots are actually allowed in the game?

Sarg, there is - in my mind, even after the endless discussion on this topic with many players and even moderators arguing the contrary - not a shred of doubt that sending screenshots in a game is in fact crossing a very dangerous line, I am in full agreement with you, despite the many legitimate counterarguments that exist.

"So, screenshots are actually allowed in the game?"

Yep. And if you can sneak a webcam into your opponents house and video them typing a proposal to stab their ally and then post that video on youtube that is that is legal too.

I think I agree with Redhouse in principle, also. Screenshots of other people's press is going a step too far, and, in my opinion, against the spirit of the games intent.

Yes, they can be "faked." So what? Do we really want the metric of our diplomatic success to become how well we can shoop?

Though it is probably "not cheating" under current definitions, in my opinion, this should be added to the list on no-no's, as it adds a level of silliness that the writers of the rules obviously did not anticipate.

This again...? The fact that a screenshot can be easily faked doesn't mean games devolve into screenshot wars. It means that screenshots are ignored for being unreliable. This is just like saying copy-pasting should be banned.

@YJ: I completely agree and in fact believe the current rules allow room for interpretation that considers these screenshots to actually BE banned already, I personally can't understand how people can have any other opinion than the one you voice here, but apparently a large part of the community disagrees. It's a very hot issue currently and I'm hoping for a clarification of the rules by the mods or extension of the rules to prohibit taking screenshots of games.

@YJ - And that is the approach redhouse should have taken. Not declarations that it was alrady metagaming and against the rules, but that it should be a banned practice. I actually have no problem with the mods banning it if they so choose, and I think the discussion is that it may be OK in full press non-anon and on a case-by-case basis in fullpress anon so they can review if it revealed who a player was. And a full ban in limited press for obvious reasons.

"I personally can't understand how people can have any other opinion than the one you voice here"

Right there is the problem. Simply say "I can see how the rules are unclear on it and hope the mods make a rulign soon" instead of effectively attacking a lareg part of the community by saying you can't understand their thought processes. You *can* understand it, you just refuse to.

Can we not just say up front that screenshots are being used in the game and if people don't like playing with these people they can just avoid them, would this not be an easy and quick resolution to the problem......I would like to keep things simple where possible and have 'normal' games !!

Guys this is way too political. This thread was meant for personal rants against me, that are always justified.

I'm sure you guys have some stuff about my mother and whatnot. Plus the carnivore score proposal was really uncool. Bring it on.

@YJ - the point isn't whther you can do the faking. the point is that the y are unreliable as evidence of jack squat because *someone* can fake them. And it is pretty evident that a good portion of this community can fake them.

I think I might agree with you YJ. Screenshots are silly. They can be easily faked its true, but who can be bothered? On the otherhand maybe because screenshots are such a naff idea who can be bothered writing the rules against them?
Ban them, don't ban them, I don't really care. I might care more if the idea some how catches on. If it did I would probably say it should be banned. On the other hand since I have enough diplomatic wherewithal to turn things around on the poster, I decree maybe it should be allowed... or maybe it should be banned? .... and that's my final word.

In Draugnar's world, if you can't fake a screenshot or are not aware that they are very, very easily faked, you're a complete idiot. So before his instructions I was a complete idiot. Which would be a good point for this thread, coming to think of it.

I think redhouse is wrong on this issue but I think starting a thread "I hate redhouse" is completely deplorable.

@Nigee - but how do you know on general games whether a player is a screenshotter or not. I'm all for giving the right to use screenshots in fullpress non-aon or for banning them altogether everywhere. I don't care either way. But I'm sure redhouse will never play with me because I stood up for the interpretatin that it isn't against the rules and was backed by ora and abge who clearly said, while they haven't officially decided how to handle the subject long term, using things outside the site ot communicate in fullpress non-anon is not metagaming accordign to the current rules. That was an official interpretation.

So I will forever be in red's "he's a screenshotter" camp even though I have not ever and never will use them.

@spyman +1 - My feelings exactly.

Draugnar, you don't strike me as the kind of person even in a desperate situation to do that, I'll be happy to play with you. If you are happy to play with me. But not right now, because the two minutes of hate haven't finished yet. :-)

Redhouse, I don't think your idea of banning screenshots is a bad idea. Defining the limits of communication has merit. At least that way every player understands what is to be expected. I think it is imporant that all players have a shared understanding of what the game is about.

I posted this in the other thread, but it looks as though the discussion has moved to here.

I was arguably the 'victim' of the sent screenshots - The images published included correspondence firstly between myself and Turkey (in which I made plans to stab Italy with him) and secondly between myself and Russia (in which I made plans to ally with him should his play for a solo fail.)

Initially, I was fairly annoyed that such sensitive messages were sent to the very people I was plotting against. However, I do not actually think it should be banned.

The game is all about getting the upper hand over your rivals. Sending screenshots is one way to achieve that. Yes, it may seem petty or distasteful, but there's plenty that goes on in the game which could be considered those things. Bottom line: if I didn't want other players to know about my plans to stab them, I should have been more careful about who I shared those plans with.

Also, in this instance the player who sent the screenshots did not actually get any kind of advantage from doing so. I was told by Italy that Turkey had sent screenshots. That showed me I couldn't trust Turkey, and so I abandoned my plans for supporting Italy against Turkey and instead did the opposite. By the time the second screenshot was posted, this time in global, the content of the messages caused far less outrage than the actual sharing of the picture which only served to get people's backs up.

No, it shouldn't be banned. If it actually did confer an unfair advantage I'd say it should, but from this example its quite clear that the screenshots didn't help those that sent them in any way, while a simple copy and paste might have done.

@red - I never once called you an idiot. Quit putting words in my mouth, Rothausfrau.

I know plenty of people on here can't do it. I know people may not realize how easy it is to fake. But everyone on this site shoudl realize that if Hollywood can make very believable aliens and giant monsters and even make believable snuff films that convince their own people someone was kileld while having sex, then the internet is full of people savy enough to make fake anything, even videos of them typing in a url and going to a website but displaying something different. That's as easy as temporarily adding a refernce in your computer's hosts file to point say "www.webdiplomacy.net" to "www.draugnar.com".

@greysoni - Redhouse started this thread himself. Not someone else.

Mistake in the 5th paragraph:

'supporting Italy against Turkey' should be 'Turkey against Italy.'