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Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
10 Apr 12 UTC
Look, Foreigners, I don't hate you guys, but
Like seriously, you all have no culture. Most of you don't even make good movies. Many of you talk funny, and don't eat enough meat. Try driving an SUV, it makes you feel powerful. And seriously, what do you do for role models? I mean you don't have ANYTHING that compares to Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. Also, why can't you afford designer clothes like a real person? USA, baby. USA.
98 replies
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redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Sending screenshots of diplomatic conversations to other players
More information follows.
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redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
So recently, I've played in a game (won't mention any game or personal details) where at some point, screenshots of diplomatic conversations were sent to third parties. Of course, these conversations were embarrassing, revealing complicated schemes to stab other players.
In my case, I am player A, player B sent me a screenshot in which player C apparently revealed sensitive information about my moves to B and was planning further cooperation with B to destroy me, A.
Of course, I immediately sent the screenshot to player C, telling him "look what player B did, revealing sensitive information and everything", and I said I immediately forgave him the fact that he was plotting against me if he would change sides, which he did.
The point is that this is a case of meta-gaming. You are using information from outside the game (the screenshots are placed at some "imgur" website) to influence what is happening inside the game (breaking of trust between two players to take advantage of the ensuing war).
What is the difference between sending a screenshot and copy pasting diplomatic post? The difference is huge: deniability. In case of a screenshot, you can't deny that you actually wrote it because the information is simply there, on the screen. When information is copy pasted (a practice that I am in favor of) there is always the option of denial. It's like saying "Mrs. Jones, your husband is cheating on you with me" or "Mrs. Jones, your husband is cheating on you with me and here are a couple of photos of us having sex."
In a FtF game, the equivalent of this practice would be to bring audio-recording material and let other players listen to the delicate parts.
I've arrived at the point where I simply cannot send diplomatic information to certain countries - not for fear of them telling the others - but for fear of them taking screenshots of it and showing the others. This is not how I want to play Diplomacy. I hope the webdip-community speaks out strongly against this practice and the mods clarify that this is, in fact, a case of metagaming.
No, this is not a cheating accusation. I'm not mentioning a particular player, or country, or game, and I am not revealing whether the game has finished or is ongoing. What I can say is that this particular game is ruined, there's no more fun in it.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
For quality of conversation, I make the following statement:

"Sending screenshots of private country to country conversations to a third country is metagaming"

You can then answer by "Yes, however", or "Yes", or "No, however", "No, not at all" etc. etc.
A screenshot can easily be falsified, though. It would take rather a lot of effort for an online game, but the process itself isn't difficult. In light of that fact, it's really no different from copy-pasting, except that as they're marginally more difficult to falsify there's an (immeasurable, but certainly small) chance that they're more legitimate.

So, I'm going to go with "no," because a screenshot doesn't necessarily mean anything more than a copy-pasted message means anything.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
PE, are you sure you want to go this way? Is this how you want to play, falsifying screenshots and everything?? ADMINISTRATIVE HELL is where you end up. It'll be a game about "who is the best at falsifying screenshots" rather than "who is the best at real, actual persuasion". This game should be about DIPLOMATIC skill, not about PHOTOSHOPPING skill.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
And yes, I am really, really, really angry about this.
The fact that screenshots are easily falsifiable doesn't turn this game into a photoshopping game, it means you ignore screenshots altogether because they're unreliable. Or, you selectively trust or don't trust them, as you selectively trust or don't trust copy-pasted materials.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Ow come on you're being completely unreasonable. You're simply adding a tool in your diplomatic toolbox that shouldn't be there. Where does it end PE? How lame is it to use that tool? VERY VERY LAME.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
+ You're putting the burden of not metagaming with the person who received the photograph. "Or, you selectively trust or don't trust them, as you selectively trust or don't trust copy-pasted materials."
I'm talking about the person who SENT the images, that's where the cheating takes place, NOT at the receiving end. Cheating is about "TRYING TO INFLUENCE", not whether that influence is successful or not, that is determined at the RECEIVER'S end. You're so wrong.
A tool which:

(a), due to its lack of being used (I think I've seen it used twice, ever), is no doubt automatically regarded with distrust;
(b), has just as much chance of backfiring (take your own example; presumably B sent that screenshot to get on your good side, but if you made up with C and carried on, some good it did B, eh?) as working out;
(c) is no more reliable than existing tools (copy-paste is seriously the exact same thing...).

I'm just not seeing the additional impact that a screenshot has compared to copy-paste. If the players are caught unawares, then sure, perhaps it works more effectively, but in theory I don't see what makes it more special than a copy-paste.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Alright can I have some feedback from other players as well? I'd really appreciate it.

So we're still talking about this statement:

"Sending screenshots of private country to country conversations to a third country is metagaming"

You can all "vote" by simply replying "Yes" or "No", or you can participate in the discussion any way you like.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Whatever PE.
Your reasoning strikes me as having circular logic to it. As I regard copy-pasting and a screenshot as the same thing (ostensibly more reliable means of "proving" someone's intentions which actually don't carry any weight at all), and as I regard neither as cheating, I would reject the entire notion that it's cheating, and thus there's no burden not to metagame via screenshots...
fiedler (1293 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
i think, technically, you are right redhouse. To send a screenshot you must use an external communication method, which IS against the rules and IS technically metagaming.

Shame on the poor desperate people that stoop to this.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
^+1 fiedler. Here's someone who understand something about how rules and regulations work. Thank you. Keep the "Yes" coming so we can ban this BS practice from webdip.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
*understands
"...use an external communication method, which IS against the rules and IS technically metagaming."

No, it isn't. Communication-related issues are covered in rule 3:

"3. Don't work around game messaging/press rules.
If you enter a game with limited press/messaging (such as global-only) then you can't use other methods such as email or PM to bypass this."

Note that this rule is limited to limited press settings, like using Gmail chat to talk about an ongoing gunboat game with another player. Full press games are not covered.

And then this blasted one, rule 9:

"9. Follow common sense
The rules above are mainly ones which might not be obvious; just because a specific rule isn't given here doesn't mean moderators can't stop people ruining the server for others!"

Which is essentially a catch-all for moderators' decisions, and not an effective guide for us. I would (and do) posit that as a screenshot is easily doctored, it does not constitute any further threat than a copy-paste, and that common sense would dictate that if copy-pasting messages is allowed, then a screenshot is allowed as well.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Thank you PE. Based on what you're saying, you are probably the kind of person who uses these childish and illegal methods. Remind me not to play with children like you anymore. Any grown-ups here who want to add to the conversation?
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Okay I'm sorry that was uncalled for, but the thesis remains. Screenshots=metagaming.
I'm not sure why you're even bothering to ask for opinions if you're going to ad hominem the daylights out of people for disagreeing with yours.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Which is why I apologized.
santosh (335 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
You don't need Photoshop to falsify screenshots, FireBug for Firefox lets you edit content on any web page client-side. Change conversations to what you want by editing the page at your end, take a screen shot, and you're good to go. Piece of cake.

Proof : http://imgur.com/FXigS

It's not meta-gaming at all, it's perfectly legal and acceptable. In your example, suppose Person C responded with a different screenshot of the same conversation, which happens to be different from the original one and accuses B of having modified it to trick you. Who do you trust now? How is this any different from the original problem?

Vaftrudner (2533 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/pFgJd.png

This took me about two minutes to make. Point? Don't believe in screenshots.

Also, I haven't played a single F2F game where spying and falsifying information in any way hasn't been allowed. Short of actually touching the board, everything goes.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
No, fiedler is correct. This is a form of communication that lies OUTSIDE the game, on ANOTHER website, that is NOT webdip. It's not rocket science to see this is metagaming.

AGAIN, we DON'T want to be a community that wants to even ADDRESS the question of how best to falsify the shots, how to ignore them, etc.. We just want to never see it again.
That's nice. It's a shame that your actual intentions with the thread are too transparent for a simple apology after that uncalled-for outburst to cover up.
santosh (335 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Okay, I won't use imgur. Instead, I'll send each of my pictures, byte by byte, over press. At your end, you would then copy them into a file, and open them in an image viewer. How about that?
You didn't even address the arguments Vaftrudner and santosh brought forth, nor did you do anything but repeat yourself instead of actually citing a single rule to validate your statement.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
PE, I gather you do not accept my apology? Or do you?

The point is, YES, Vaftrudner, you can make this stuff. I can't. I don't want to make that stuff. I don't want to use software for my games other than the software I need to see the board and type my messages.

I send occasional "memes" to lighten the mood and I feel a little bad about it, but this is uncalled for. We shouldn't even be having the discussion.
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
12 Apr 12 UTC
People who want to cheat will do anything to cheat but if you're in a full press game all information is freely available anyway whether it is presented verbally, visually, graphically, etc.
Would you be happier if the player said I've got proof of his plans below in print but I won't send it to you because it might upset the player in question, would that be much better?
I personally think it's out of order and not in the spirit of the game but for some weirdos rules seem to go out of the window. How far will people go just to win a stoopid game, it's rediculous.
I'm on your side, what's even more annoying is when they do this sort of thing in anonymous, no press games !!
danr (100 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
I agree on President Eden's point that counterfeiting screenshots is easy as pie. Further, you do not need photoshop to do it, you can alter a saved version of the webpage. I also don't think it is more meta-gaming than copying text.

But on the other side, I agree with redhouse. Even though screenshots can be forgered, I believe that not many people will know how to do it, or even ponder if it is possible. As an example, screenshots have been used as proofs in court in Sweden.

This makes an unfortunate imbalance: people with the knowledge to fake screenshots can easily fool people who can't even conceive that screenshots can be imitated. For this very reason, I would actually be in favor of disallowing screenshots.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
^Again, another player who understands something about "being reasonable" in the game. Way to go NigeeBaby. So nice to meet reasonable people who don't use screenshots. After my break, I'm going to set up a nice imgur-free game with Nigee and fiedler. In the meantime, let's ban this practice.

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346 replies
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
13 Apr 12 UTC
Any interest for a 101D gunboat?
WTA anon gunboat, 24 hours, 101 D, passworded.

Any takers?
0 replies
Open
Leif_Syverson (271 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
High Effort Thought is Required to Hold to Liberalism as it is Unnatural
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/16/0146167212439213.abstract?rss=1
77 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
06 Apr 12 UTC
Endorse me!
Hello all, I am looking for endorsements to put on my profile, kind of like a movie script kinda thing. Please endorse me..best get on my profile with your name :D

"Sandgoose is one of the greatest players to play with" - your name here
"funny, intelligent, interesting" - your name here
46 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
12 Apr 12 UTC
This might sound a little too much like "The White Man's Burden"
and I'm aware of that but...
48 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Webcam Friday?
Is there interest in a game for this week? Everyone bailed last week. =(
11 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
I don't always metagame
But when I do, I post URLs.

http://imgur.com/GoXFa
7 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
09 Apr 12 UTC
Attention all gunboat snobs
Would you guys hook JimTheGrey up with some quality gunboat games for a lot lower than 500 point but-in, he's a F2Fer still trying to build up his bank account, and he told me he would kick all your asses if you were brave enough to play him...
111 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
08 Apr 12 UTC
Reboot: Vaft's 1009 point challenge
50 replies
Open
Nemesis17 (100 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
high stakes game please join
6 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
12 Apr 12 UTC
Answer this economics question please
See inside. I have a test tomorrow lol
51 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
08 Apr 12 UTC
Krellin, Re: Constitution
Per your request, I read the constitution. Here is what I found:

305 replies
Open
cspieker (18223 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Why does the timer NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL TIME LEFT?
I noticed in a live game yesterday that a couple of times I changed my moves and hit "save" when the clock still said 2 seconds or something like that, but I got the "game has moved on, please refresh" thingy.

What is up with that? Why not have the clock actually indicate how many seconds you have left to get in your moves. Sometimes that can make a difference in a live game.
9 replies
Open
cteno4 (100 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
STALEMATE LINE!!!! LOLOL
Have you ever been stabbed by an ally for ONE measly supply center just so he could say that? Seriously, WTF. Grow up, people.
4 replies
Open
Lopt (102 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Can't Talk - I'm Busy Faking Screenshots
STOP fucking cheating!!!
46 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Play By Carrier Pigeon
Abgemacht has given his blessing for a carrier pigeon variant wherein players communicate via carrier pigeons. Who's up for it? I have six little birdies just waiting to fly the coup with diplomatic intrigue! Just think of the metagaming possibility when you intercept someone else's bird!
58 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
12 Apr 12 UTC
1100 Point Gunboat
Who is interested?
6 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
12 Apr 12 UTC
The end of Capitalism?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2012/04/economy-and-markets?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/badgoldilocks

See inside...
14 replies
Open
Lopt (102 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Cheating
I'm butt-hurt and I want you too look at this game: gameID=85903

Germany and Russia are one and the same, because there is no reason to go relentlessly after someone, without gaining much or enough, exposing your entire back to the biggest power in the game, granting him the win.
28 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1233 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Would whoever Turkey was in the Xtra Special Gunboat please stand up?
I mean, waiting a year and a half after everyone else votes cancel because Russia failed to show to add the decisive 6th vote, only when the board starts turning against you, is kind of weak sauce.
3 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
11 Apr 12 UTC
Look, Americans, I don't hate you guys, but
we, the Dutch are cooler.
71 replies
Open
santosh (335 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
More Metagaming Fun
Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while.
4 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2606 D(B))
12 Apr 12 UTC
You know what I hate?
Starting a 1v1 game with Eden and he leaves after 1901.
19 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
12 Apr 12 UTC
Coolest Coin Ever?
http://news.yahoo.com/canada-s-newest-coin-glows-in-the-dark.html
A quarter that glows in the dark, depicting a dinosaur in the light, and a glowing version of its skeleton in the dark.

HOW COOL IS THAT?
5 replies
Open
Pete U (293 D)
08 Apr 12 UTC
Who wants a game?
Well, after the last one was spoilt by a CD, I thought I'd try again...
26 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
01 Apr 12 UTC
Vaftrudner's Song of the Day
DAY 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAtUw6lxcis
The Undertones - Teenage Kicks
56 replies
Open
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
12 Apr 12 UTC
Has anyone noticed the URL to the Ghosty's site has changed?
Seems like Google is streamlining its google pages.
1 reply
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
12 Apr 12 UTC
Another Space Race--to Mars?
So, I was thinking, the one nice thing about the Cold War was that NASA got tons of money to just be awesome. People were excited about science and we developed a lot of cool technology. Why can't we have another Space Race? Surely China or India would be up for the challenge.
5 replies
Open
Trooth (561 D)
12 Apr 12 UTC
**OFFICIAL** Official official thread
Official.
6 replies
Open
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