I haven't read the whole thing either, and completely agree that finding out someone is transgendered is no excuse for violence. But it's a pretty shitty thing to not let someone know what they're in for if things end up getting physical. I mean, can you really blame someone for being repulsed when they reach down their and feel a wad of man-junk instead of lady-junk? With post-op situations I guess it's a bit more hazy in a hook-up situation, but if you're in a relationship the only healthy thing to do is let the other person know.

Krellin is right. (WTF?)

I don't care how badly a MTF feel that she is a woman. If I find out that you were once a man, I'm going to be upset. The article is well written, but it's quite silly in principle (as when the author *grudgingly* admits that it's probably a good thing to disclose before marrying somebody).

yes, that excuse for abuse/violence is still no excuse. But the question of the ethics of revealing/hiding one's trans identity.

This article puts forward the position that for 'casual hookups' there is no particular reason to reveal this information, and it would only be for an emotional intimate relationship where the other person was at risk of being hurt by some of the emotional issues which trans-people face.

On the earlier issue, i think the question is not of portrayal, but of identity, are you first your physical sex, or is your gender identity more important.

If you identify as typical female, but have a male body, and you are willing to undergo significant procedures to change your physical body (to be more inline with your gender) then you obviously feel that it is your gender not you body which is more important.

The incongruity occurs when someone isn't thinking about the difference because it has never even occurred to them that gender and sex can be different.

Thus they live in a privileged world where they have never had to worry about the question...

You may say I'm a bigot, but I just believe transgender people are *sick*. It is counterproductive to the survival of humanity if there exist people who cannot mate normally because of some thought process they have. I could say the same with gays too, and that's why I'm against the recognition of the LGBT as a normal group. It isn't biologically fitting.

Orathaic I get the privilege thing, and sure we can increase awareness and it's only a good thing. I am all for increasing awareness so that people won't have such a visceral reaction when they discover that a potential mate was not what they expected.

That being said, I am NOT going to ask my potential fling to confirm that she was born a woman before coitus as the author suggests. It is just silly.

oh jeez gobbledy just kill that shit, OK? This isn't a thread about whether or not it's OK to be trans. OP assumes it is. This is a thread about whether they have a duty to disclose, and that is a MUCH more interesting topic of conversation than wherever your train is leading.

YJ you do not silence me.
But if we take the position of OP, then yes it is bad to lie about the nature of your body. If you're a female mind in a male body, or vice versa, sexy time wouldn't be the best time to reveal that...

Maybe the article specifically talks about post-op transsexuals. I only skimmed it, my time and patience being low right now. I just know that if I felt something down there that I wasn't expecting I'd be mortified, and I won't apologize for that. For post-op I'd be upset if I found out, but if I never knew then I guess it doesn't matter. I don't see how you can not know, but since Joan Rivers is actually starting to look OK (as long as you don't see her hands) they can do some pretty amazing stuff with surgery.

'That being said, I am NOT going to ask my potential fling to confirm that she was born a woman before coitus as the author suggests. It is just silly.'

ok, that's fine, but if you don't care, then should your potential fling tell you? does it matter?

And yes 'If I find out that you were once a man, I'm going to be upset.'

That is fine, there are upsetting things in the world. But does the fault lie with them for not telling you, or with you for not asking?

You may say i am a bigot, but people who think like gobbledygook are counter productive to human society.

That's true, now terminate me.
Science ftw.

@invictus, the article is specifically talking about post-op, i think.

@Gobbledydook. 'it is bad to lie about the nature of your body' - why? if a person finds your body attractive, then why does it matter what your body's past was?

gobble you are right, and I'm not saying you don't have the right to be heard, but yeah that's just bigoted and distracting from a more interesting conversation

Ora: haha I'm having trouble constructing a logical argument here, which usually means I'm wrong :P The best I can come up with is that I don't think the straight world (both the men who want to get laid and the straight women who you damn well know will often be VERY offended if asked) is ready to accept that kind of responsibility for what is still considered quite fringe sexuality in the mainstream. I think in a perfect world this would not be a big deal, and I could ask a woman this question without fear of reprisal.

Damn that's a weak argument isn't it? Maybe somebody else can do better.

Okay, I was assuming the case *before* the transformation.
Afterwards, there is a case to be made.

Assuming you're right about it being specific to post-op, it's still a dick move to not let your potential partner know. A hook-up is hazy, but I would still say the right thing to do is be honest. But I guess that makes be a bigot in this brave new world of ours.

The article raises some very important points, for those of you who only skimmed it. The assumption that it's the transgendered person's duty and responsibility to live up to a cisgendered/heterosexual person's needs and view on sexuality reinforces a very skewed power dynamic. The question of the transgendered person's needs and feelings is rarely ever discussed by cis-people. I think that thinking about this is more important, and more the point of the article, than laying down some moral absolutes.

We're all bigots.

@Gobbldygook -- Actually, it is SCIENCE that enable someone to be post-op...

Science for the win! <rolls eyes...>

Yes, Vaft, that's what I was trying to say.

@ Orathaic I have a better argument, now. I'll relate this to a drunk chick. Every man has that opportunity to bang a hot drunk chick who would probably not do him when she's sober. Many men (myself included) have made the decision NOT to take advantage. Why?

We recognize that in her current state, she is not fully aware of the reality of the situation. She is effectively "uninformed," and that when she becomes aware, she will likely be very unhappy with herself and with us for the decision she made without full possession of the facts. So we do the right thing, and wait until she has recovered her awareness of the truth (i.e. she's sober again). This is EXPECTED of men, at least of decent men.

If you buy the parallel, then why can't we expect the same of transgendered MTF's? Why can we not expect them to make sure that a potential sexual partner is not as aware as possible of what he is getting into before having sex?

YJ, because every time a MTF person says "I was born male", the underlying meaning, culturally, is "I'm not a REAL woman, so I need to tell you". This is very hurtful for someone who identifies female. Same thing for FTM people. I won't say what's right or wrong in the situation, I'm not transgendered and I'm biased in my own way, I identify as bisexual so binary gender means very little to me. I just want to remind people of what it means for the transgendered person. It's easy enough only to think of the heterosexual man's needs without spending time thinking about the transgendered person's needs and feelings. That's where it gets really complicated and very difficult to make any ethical point. Clearly the author of the article falls into the feminist category that the group with the most power has the responsibility to cede that power to the "oppressed" group. What I mean with "oppressed" is a group with less power, visibility, perceived normality, social currency, etc. I lean towards this view myself but I won't impose it, because it's very theoretical, and hook-ups are not.

I do understand that Vaft, but I feel that what the trans person is REALLY being hurt by is the rejection.

I understand that this can be hurtful, but also bear in mind that in a very real sense, the cultural underpinning is grounded in reality (i.e. we want you to disclose that you are not a real woman because in the eyes of the average hetero you actually are NOT a real woman). The trans person may not understand or acknowledge the difference, but she must be aware that a straight man in all likelihood will.

I, personally, feel that any time a person possesses information that a potential lover does not that may change the potential lover's willingness to engage in sexual intercourse with one, it is the duty of that person to disclose.

That's were it usually ends up. Sex is so personal, biological and visceral, and also omnipresent, that any discussion can't be divorced from how you personally feel. I feel as biased as anyone else. I wouldn't mind going home with a hot guy only to find out that he's a dragking, or a robot, or an alien from the planet Kryxmlkkp-8 with ten nipples.

haha Vaft to be honest I don't think I would be hurt or horrified or enraged if I found out that a woman I had slept with was born a man.

Given the option, though, I would definitely want to know a priori, so I can make this important decision with as much knowledge as possible.

So I ask myself - being a natural born male homo sapiens and planning to stay that way all my life - should I tell my future partners about this? As in "honey, there is something I need to tell you. I just *hope* you weren't assuming I am a transsexual and was a woman at birth, because I've actually been like this all my life."
What should her reaction be? Discuss.

redhouse, happy that you're aware of and sensitive to other gender ideas. And it would break any tension. If none of the above, fuck her. Not literally.

Not literally? After I went through the emotional torment of telling her I'm not a transsexual? You're cruel.

"Then we have the idea that although it’s your hang-up that is generating the potential conflict, we have to predict that possibility, account for it, and take it on as our own ethical responsibility. This is unbelievably privileged and selfish. If the issue of a partner’s gender status is important to you, and you consider it a potential deal-breaker, then like all potential deal-breakers, it’s your responsibility to both of us to ask beforehand. After all, my being trans is not something that is of some huge concern for me in terms of pursuing our relationship, so why should I have to be the one to bring it up? If smoking is a deal-breaker, you ask potential partners if they smoke (or you smell it on them) or make it overt that that’s a deal-breaker and you’re not interested in smokers. If you don’t make that clear, it’s not a smokers fault that they dated you. If someone having once been a stripper is a deal-breaker for you, it’s your job to ask. If someone having a promiscuous sexual history is a deal-breaker for you, it’s your job to ask. If you’re not okay with dating Jewish women, it’s your job to ask." - From the article. A decent point I think.

@vaft, thanks for weighing in, it is easier to have a more balanced conversation (ie one where someone is able to explain the alternative position... otherwise there would be nothing to talk about)

@YJ: 'I'll relate this to a drunk chick...'

In the case of a drunk chick there is a problem not with lack of knowledge of who she is doing, it is a problem with lack of the ability to consent while drunk.

Alas this is a difficult question as drunkeness reduces inhibitions and thus (potentially) increases the likelyhood of consent, up to the point where it inhibits the ability to make any decisions at all.

The 'facts' in the alternate case are that a male is sexually attracted to a female. The male may be annoyed because they are biggoted towards trans people, but who's problem is that? Should the blame be assigned to the male for not asking upfront, or the female for not offering the information when not asked?

I don't think the comparison to drunkeness is entirely valid.

A better analogy would be to sex with a person who has a mental illness, which they did not disclose before hand.

@ orathaic - Thanks for posting this. It's a really interesting article. I was on the fence initially, but having read the whole article I think she's right. I know agree with the author here. So yeah again, thanks for posting really enjoyed reading this.