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bolshoi (0 DX)
02 Mar 12 UTC
who needs lebanon?
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/01-03-2012/120646-No_Lebanon_will_be_on_map-0/

why stop at palestine? keep the bulldozers rolling!
3 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
Where the free market FAILED
sorta a late response to a lot of TCs advocating free market captialism. This is an article and talk about an industry that because of how free the market was, the market failed.
http://www.economist.com/node/21548240
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Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
ACIDIFICATION, warming, the destruction of coral reefs: the biggest problems facing the sea are as vast, deep and seemingly intractable as the oceans themselves. So long as the world fails to cut its emissions of greenhouse gases, cause of the global warming behind these troubles, they will grow. By comparison, overfishing, another great curse, should be easier to put right, especially in the coastal waters where most fishing occurs. And yet it goes on, year after year.

Fishermen have every reason to do something. Many fisheries are hurtling towards collapse; stocks of large fish have been reduced by up to 90%. When stocks are overfished, they yield a smaller catch. The cost of mismanagement, in lost economic output, is huge: some $50 billion a year, according to the World Bank.

One reason why the pillage continues is that knowledge of fish stocks is poor, especially in developing countries. A new statistical attempt at estimating the remaining shoals (see article), from the University of California, Santa Barbara, is therefore welcome—even if that is not true of its findings, that stocks are even more ravaged than previously thought. The study found that better-understood fisheries are likelier to be healthy. Another reason for overfishing is new technology (developed, aptly enough, for battlefields), which makes shoals easier to detect. As large boats and refrigeration have spread, fishing fleets have covered greater distances and hoovered up larger catches. Because technology lets fishermen fish with less effort, it disguises just how fast the stocks are depleting.

Fishermen generally understand the risks of overfishing. Yet still they flout quotas, where they exist. That is often because they take a short-term view of the asset—they would rather cash in now and invest the money in something else. And it is invariably compounded by a commons-despoiling feeling that if they don’t plunder, others will.

In most fisheries, the fishermen would make more money by husbanding their resource, and it should be possible to incentivise them to do so. The best way is to give them a defined, long-term right to a share of the fish. In regulated industrial fisheries, as in Iceland, New Zealand and America, this has taken the form of a tradable, individual share of a fishing quota. Developing countries, where law enforcement is weak, seem to do better when a group right over an expanse of water is given to a co-operative or village fleet. The principle is the same: fishermen who feel like owners are more likely to behave as responsible stewards. The new statistical study confirms that rights-based fisheries are generally healthier.

The rights stuff

Yet only a few hundred of the oceans’ thousands of fisheries are run this way, mainly because such schemes are hard to get right. Limiting access to a common resource creates losers, and therefore discord. Cultural differences affect success rates; not everyone is as law-abiding as Icelanders. Almost everywhere it takes time to convince fishermen, the last hunter-gatherers, to change their habits. But, barnacled by caveats though it may be, the rights-based approach is the best available.

In rich countries, satellite imagery will increasingly help, by making monitoring cheaper and better. In many poor ones, devolution is making it easier to form local organisations. Another promising idea is to incorporate rights-based fisheries with no-catch zones. These safeguard breeding-stocks and are easier to monitor than individual catches. Where stocks are recovering, as a result of these reforms, fishermen are likelier to see scientifically determined quotas as in their self-interest. In the end, that may be the only hope.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
So the sum up, fish is a rather scarce resource but could be easily made sustainable, however the first come first serve approach of the free market gives fisherman the impression that if they don't over fish, someone else will.

Causing massive over fishing and a self-destruction in the industry.

This is a good example where the free market didn't allocate resources efficiently and regulation would help not hurt the industry.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
The purpose of bringing this up is not to advocate central planning, but that there is no one-size fits all solution to every economic problem.
Market failures are a known phenomena. Belief in the infallibility of the free market is religious-level in the leap of faith it entails. Markets ARE the most efficient way to distribute most goods most of the time, but there are some things that markets simply aren't good at.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
And in some cases market failures are good because they correct past problems in the market.

This is also a good example of stating the difference between efficient and effective.

Right here, it is still efficiently allocating resources (as it is almost getting every single fish out of the sea), regulating the market would decrease the current supply and lower efficiency, however it would make it more sustainable, past only a few years, which is something we desperately need.

The free market relies on the fact that it will eventually allocate resources most effectively and efficiently when the price hits its equilibrium. However in some cases that equilibrium will never come.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
there are two issues, nonrenewable resources and pollution. for pollution, it's not an issue with full property rights, because if someone pollutes, those subject to his pollution can sue for damages. on the nonrenewable issue, there have to be some limit to the market. government parks, for example, i'm not sure if that's a matter of there being missing freedom so much... more like defining the freedom. in theory, though, if giant corporations permanently owned fishing rights, they would not overfish. so it's not the free market per-se.
Puddle (413 D)
29 Feb 12 UTC
Which is an example of market practice of reducing current consumption in order to push out the PPF and enjoy greater consumption at a later date. Regulation and Free market are not mutually exclusive.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
it's more like an argument against anarchy. cause under anarchy everyone can fish anywhere. leading to overfishing. but a free market assumes property rights are defined. so then the question is how to distribute those rights in a way so that the market works.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
the non-renewable argument is the most flawed anti-free market.

The free market is designed to use prices, the laws of supply and demand, to determine production.

In the example of energy.

Lets look at coal vs wind:

Coal costs 3 cents per kw, Wind costs 16.
A kw of Coal is identical to a kw of wind, so in the free market coal is a better resource (at this current time) then wind.

So being a free market, country X decides to expand its coal industry.
Fastfoward a few years.

Coal is a non-renewable resource, so eventually the resource runs out. The supply goes down, and so therefore the price and quantity decreases.

As a result some energy companies will invest in R&D for alternative resources so they can maintain their profit margins when the cost starts to rise.

Few years later its now 7 cents for coal, and 12 cents for wind.

These are real numbers of estimated cost of coal and wind 10 years ago and today. As coal becomes more scarce, wind will become more used in a free market.

In a lot of cases, this being an example, the free market will allocate resources effectively as in a central planning where we jump to wind instantly, the costs of energy would have been higher.

@bolshoi: I just talked to my brother and he said the same thing. That fishing isn't free market because nobody owns property in the sea which is a requirement for the market to truly be free.

About pollution:
pollution is an externality, a cost not incurred in the price.

externalities is one of two main causes of the free market to fail (other being monopolization). Because the price doesn't reflect externalities the price isn't perfectly reflective of the value of the product making the price an imperfect measure of the market value.

However in cases of externalities there are some ways to put externalities in the price:
The example of pollution is one of the easiest to solve: Cap and Trade (unlike most conservatives I am a huge supporter of Cap and Trade). What cap and trade does is it places property on carbon dioxide. Your emissions is not allowed to be higher then the cap your placed in, if you emit more your not taxed, but you have to buy more cap room from your competitors, in other words increasing emissions will increasing the cost of supply and so pollution will now be inflected in the price of the product.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
one note: i was not being perfectly technical with my language, when i said the two issues were pollution and nonrenewables, by pollution i meant anything causing measurable externalities that can be litigated, and by nonrenewables i included things that COULD be renewable, but could be overused to the point of not renewing... what i'm trying to say is that i included fish as a nonrenewable in my definition.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
should have said the 2 issues were externalities that can be litigated and resource management. cause i was also thinking about things like parklands, rainforests, etc as one of my "non renewable"s
Anything in this environmental area boils down to the public good issue. Healthy fisheries, clean skies, and non-polluted oceans are all public goods - owned by no one and available to everyone. The problem with this is that everyone thinks that someone else will be there to foot the bill and maintain it, or that if they choose to, others will become free riders and use the improved resource for free on someone else's dollar.

the two main ways to solve this were already mentioned by Fasces. The first is to privatize the public good, which gives someone an incentive to take care of it for the future. The second main way is to put some sort of limitation on consumption, be it through quotas or a penalizing tax for high consumption (or conversely, rewards and grants for lower consumption). These are the two most used methods, and are highly efficient ways to correct for the public goods failure, imo
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
i'm not sure i like privatizing the public good... i think government contracts are somewhat illegitimate tbh. for privatization to really encourage protection requires basically granting rights in perpetuity, which binds all future citizens to this scheme. i don't even believe the government has much authority to distribute resources on behalf of citizens today, let alone citizens not even born yet.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
actually it depends what is meant by public good. privatizing schools or something is fine, because that's not even giving up anything concrete. i'm just talking specifically about limited resources.
@Bolshoi - it would not ever be permanent. The government would be able to use its right to eminent domain to take back ownership of the public good if the population is suffering. So its not like this will last from now until eternity. And a public good can be clean air, clean water, forests, the ocean. Anything that is universally out there and accessible to many people. The traditional public good used in economic textbooks is the communal grazing fields for sheep.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
29 Feb 12 UTC
Fasces, you got my +1 for this.

Gotta keep your head.

Plus I love the Economist, I read this article yesterday.
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
@goldfinger but there's a slight problem with the logic. if it indeed isn't permanent, then the private entity will not protect it because they know it can be taken back. this protection racket (joke) only works if it is permanent.
I disagree. The government can take over anything. Any building, any property, if it is deemed better for the public. That doesn't stop private enterprise from building factories or people from building homes, does it? Just because there's the possibility that 30 years into the future a highway could go through a piece of farmland doesn't mean the farmer won't keep cultivating it and taking care of it
bolshoi (0 DX)
29 Feb 12 UTC
it is a bit more complicated than that, though. for one thing giant corporations use eminent domain to take over small competitors and get rid of garbage land they don't want, but they bribe to government enough that it's rarely to their detriment. even if it were somehow possible, they would probably get market-value from the government in one way or another (courts or cronyism) and the market value can be driven up to such an extent that in order to get those lands back you'd be bankrupting the government. or at least giving them the money to take over even more resources.
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
anyway we're talking about using up limited resources here, so your analogy is a bit flawed. putting up a building increases the value of the land, using up resources diminishes the land's value. so you're claiming that because private enterprises increase land values even though the land can be taken that means they can't decrease land values... since the land can be taken!
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
or wait... hahaha. maybe my logic is a bit strange. but i still think you are missing something. one doesn't necessarily imply the other.
I'm not talking at all about land values. I'm talking about if the US government wanted to put up a military base, they could plop it wherever they wanted. If the a state or local government wanted to build a highway, they could use eminent domain to get whatever land they wanted to so long as they could prove that it benefited the public.

That said, the fact that the government could "undo" the privatization of a public good won't really mean much of anything.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
@Thucy: I am surprised you like the economist, most of the socialists (by socialism I mean any ideology that is left of center) at my school hate the economist because its just as bad as fox in distorting the facts.

But from my perspective (the center-right neo-liberal) I agree with almost everything the economist says.(I still disagree with a lot of what fox says though)

@Goldfinger: The problem with public good is that some parts are easy to turn into a profit motif (eg pollution) but there is some public goods which I don't see any way to introduce profit motif (eg public parks) and others which in the past introducing a profit motif have made them less efficient (eg healthcare).

So in the instances of healthcare (partially, I am strongly in favour of the two tier system, rather then fully private or fully public) and public parks, I would feel a lot safer with the government controlling them, however in the instances of fisheries or pollution (the other 2 public goods brought up thus far) I would feel more comfortable with mega-corporations then the government controlling them.

@bolshoi: no it isn't.
"they bribe to government"
As soon as the government intervenes (as a result of this bribe) it is no longer a free market. Your argument defeats itself...
Fasces349 (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
apparently that took 23 minutes to type, given that the above 2 comments were added...
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
@fascist (better than the nickname feces) "As soon as the government intervenes (as a result of this bribe) it is no longer a free market. Your argument defeats itself..."

what do you mean? we are arguing about the real world, not an idealization.
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
just because our theoretical world has privatization of some public resources you think it means that the world will be some kind of free-market utopia where everything is perfect? littering laws are abandoned because it's all perfectly handled in civil court as trespass or nuisance? joe the plumber can open a telecom company if he wants to?
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
oh actually i thought of a less controversial nickname, faxes.
krellin (80 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
In an intelligent free market, negative (destruction of viable crops) is balanced by the long-term goal of developing cryearly profits. TRULY free market, those that desire to make money in the LONG TERM will set up a system of recurring possibliity, and thus guarantee their ...

How fucking simple is that....DUHHH.
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
oh how silly of me! thank you kremlin. i thought we were debating real world policies but now i see we are just creating two competing utopias and arguing about which is better. fruitful debate indeed!
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
and actually you completely missed my point. you're talking as if the rights were granted in perpetuity but i said i didn't want to do that. but faxes said it's ok because the state can always just take it anytime, to which i responded that if it does, then the whole argument breaks down, because it was an initial assumption.

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65 replies
bolshoi (0 DX)
02 Mar 12 UTC
question of skill
if there is a game where the only two countries to cd are england and italy, and the game eventually leads to a four way draw, where france is just about to be eliminated at the end. does that indicate gross incompetence on france's part? this question is of vital importance to my self worth.
2 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
THE TRUTH SHALL NOT BE SILENCED
-p e
0 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Mar 12 UTC
This is a Debug Thread
DO *NOT* Post here unless you are bolshoi.
I am trying to reproduce a reported bug.
bolshoi, Please just post, numbering 1, 2, 3, etc until the bug appears. Then stop posting and PM me.
If anyone else posts here, I will Silence you.
63 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
29 Feb 12 UTC
MadHouse's invitational
gameID=81977
You're all cowards. Players with a >100 GR wouldn't dare to be in this game.
126 replies
Open
Werner (877 D)
29 Feb 12 UTC
Need help from a mod
Could one of the mods please take a look at the game "The Med... Is the best VI"? Seems we are stuck in pause due to a newbie who has since left the game. Thanks!
3 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
MadHouse Invitational Roll-Call
gameID=81977

As the game was supposed to have a list of all participants made available, I thought it would be better to post here instead of in game and reveal identity.
4 replies
Open
DILK (1539 D)
28 Feb 12 UTC
High Stakes Gunboat
Hey everyone, I want to start a high point WTA anon gunboat. I am thinking at least a few hundred points. Would anyone be interested? If so shoot me a PM and we can discuss points, time per phase, and the password.
I am just sick of PPSC games and constant CD's.
Also it'd be best to not post in this thread and just PM me to keep up the anonymity
15 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
Need players
Dear all,
I still need some strong players for this game
gameID=81977
Classic, full-press, WTA, 101 D, anon, PM me for the password!
5 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
02 Mar 12 UTC
England Needed -- Good position (Top 3)
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=80985#gamePanel
0 replies
Open
dvp834 (100 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
H. Kissinger's Allies game
if you need an extra player, i'd love to join
2 replies
Open
World Diplomacy - Tripping on a Wipple Dip
Please join my game. And then, please buy my books.
4 replies
Open
Aphetor (121 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
Move Review
Hey folks -

I'm a bit new to Dip, and I couldn't find anything in the rules or the DATC tests to help me figure out why the outcome of the move I just saw resulted the way it did.
2 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
17 Feb 12 UTC
Re: Ghost-Rating, Fill This Out.
http://tinyurl.com/ghostratingsurvey
Do it. Do it now. And post criticism or needed additions to the form here.
53 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
01 Mar 12 UTC
Cleanroom Update
I don't know if anyone cares, but this forum as been overflowing with bile recently, so I'm going to post this anyway.
22 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
26 Feb 12 UTC
in religion people question almost everything but everybody assumed Jesus was there
opening message is too long, will be reply...
76 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2601 D(B))
02 Mar 12 UTC
TC vs. Bolshoi
It's on!
14 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
02 Mar 12 UTC
who is boilsho is he new.
4 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
01 Mar 12 UTC
Dear bolshoi,
If you're the only one calling attention to your own trolling, you are not a troll. Please refrain from soiling our bad name with your even worse attempts.

Thanks,
Eden
42 replies
Open
hugu37 (100 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
country assignment
is there a formula, or is it random? I'm in 7 ongoing games currently, assigned Austria in 3 of them and Germany 2. Just seems a little overstacked. Granted, I've also had periods wherein I was Russia in 3/4 games at one point. Not griping, just curious to know how it works.
2 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
29 Feb 12 UTC
Game 6: Revelation
7 replies
Open
Puddle (413 D)
29 Feb 12 UTC
Iranian Nuclear Proliferation
Opener too long, be as a response.

21 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
27 Feb 12 UTC
Does this speech make you puke?
As my time here is winding down I've been posting less and have had a no thread posting policy. Unfortunately a news item that kicked me in the balls has popped up and I wanted to see if anyone can support the statements of one-half of the Republicans dynamic duo.

The question, like Mr. Santorum does this speech make you puke, and if so which part?
104 replies
Open
bolshoi (0 DX)
01 Mar 12 UTC
forum bug?
each page in a thread displays 30 comments, right? but i think if there are 31 comments in a thread, i'm only getting one page showing up, and that last comment is, i guess, on a second page that i can't get to. it's only once there get to be 32 comments that i'm allowed to see page 2 where the 31'st comment was.

is this a known issue? have other people experienced this?
10 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2601 D(B))
29 Feb 12 UTC
EVERYONE who posts wins!
We all win!
19 replies
Open
kreilly89 (100 D)
02 Mar 12 UTC
400 bid, 2 day phase, WTA, anon match
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=82091
0 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
01 Mar 12 UTC
Russia's builds
I have an interesting question on Russia's builds. I'm currently in a game as Russia, but it's a general question that I ask to the community:
24 replies
Open
Jesper0228 (1525 D)
01 Mar 12 UTC
Moderator: Unpause two games please!!
Can some moderator please unpause "the blame game-3" and "12 hour fun-2" ? We are waiting for days now and nothing happens! Thanks in advance
1 reply
Open
Philalethes (100 D(B))
01 Mar 12 UTC
The Grandest Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=81972
2 replies
Open
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