Peace isn't the only possible solution. War is very possible and now probably inevitable. The sad fact is that after the rejection of the peace plans in 2000 the only way this issue could be solved is through a general war in the Middle East. Not necessarily because they'd nuke Tel Aviv, but because then Iran can say that any Israeli attack on Hezbollah or Hamas would be treated as an attack on Iran, severely limiting Israel's response to any attack by them. It also makes a Palestinian state impossible, since the Palestinians will see no reason to make ANY deal with Israel with a patron like Iran implicitly offering them everything from the river to the sea. I wish I could be less pessimistic, but I don't see an answer to these problems besides what would happen after one side decisively wins a war, and that really could mean the destruction of Israel. This is getting scary.

I have no idea what Invictus is rambling about.

Oh I get it, in order to sidestep the gruesome assassination campaign against civilian scientists, Invictus lays blame for the situation on Iran & its nuclear program on the late Yasser Arafat at Taba & Camp David. Got it. The logical gymnastics is astounding.

Try harder.

Fuck you, Putin33.

How'd I get it wrong, tough guy?

If there was a Palestinian state and there had been a settlement where other Arab states recognized Israel as a Jewish state with a right to exist then the current situation would be radically different. The reason that didn't happen is equal parts Arafat's rejection of the plan and Israel's opaque at best behavior during the negotiations. Iran probably still would be trying for a nuclear weapon regardless, but things would be a lot less dire and the world wouldn't be at the precipice in the same way it is now. You're insufferable.

http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

Without getting into the Israeli-Iranian conflict, it does bring up an interesting debate. The innocence of the physicist working to develop military weapons.

I don't think we can dismiss 'civilian' scientists as innocent outright.

What is the difference between Israel funding Iranian dissidents and Iran funding Hezbollah. Iran funded Hezbollah first so the Isreali reaction is easily characterized as self-defense. Aren't Jews allowed to defend themselves, or do they need to march passively into the gas chambers again?

Right, because if Israel isn't allowed to fund and organize terrorists who assassinate scientists in other countries, then we're all Nazis.

"The reason that didn't happen is equal parts Arafat's rejection of the plan and Israel's opaque at best behavior during the negotiations. Iran probably still would be trying for a nuclear weapon regardless, but things would be a lot less dire and the world wouldn't be at the precipice in the same way it is now. "

This "precipice" has nothing to do with the Palestinian issue and isn't more dire because of the Palestinian issue. You're just making stuff up and then yelling at me for not buying it.

What other reason could there be than the Palestinian issue? Absent that, what do Arabs and Muslims generally have against Israel? The problem of the Palestinians is the animating issue behind every conflict Israel has with other nations.

The Iranians have been wanting nuclear power since the days of the Shah, when Iran, which is not an Arab state and whose actions have nothing to do with Arab countries, was BFF's with Israel.

Your point? Iran NOW supports groups who want to delete Israel, and supports the idea itself. If this Iranian government gets nuclear weapons then those groups will have a nuclear umbrella to act under. The only reason Israel is even considering a strike with all the risks that come along is that such a state of affairs would be fatal to Israel's long-term survival. The Israelis probably see a big war coming and want it to start on their terms. Given their history that's a pretty safe assumption.

And don't try to paint me as some moron who doesn't know Iranians aren't Arab. See how I said "Arabs and Muslims generally"?

I see we got the trifecta. Anytime anybody brings up crimes committed against Iran just say the following: 1) It's Arafat's fault; 2) Iran wants to "delete" Israel; and 3) You're all Nazis if you don't like the policy

Nevermind that there isn't any proof whatsoever that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons, and that the international community has been claiming Iran is a year away from the bomb since the early 1990s. Just repeat the same tactics that were used vs Iraq. That works.

And my point is that Iran seeking nuclear power has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine. It has everything to do with their lack of energy resources.

1) It's equally Arafat and Israel's fault. Read what I write.
2) It does. The Ayatollah said as much this week, as if the past thirty years haven't been enough proof.
3) No one here called you a Nazi or said someone who disagreed was a Nazi. Reductio ad hitlerum.

If you really believe that Iran, a country with one of the largest oil reserves on Earth, needs nuclear power for electricity then you are a fool. They want nuclear weapons so that they can dominate the region, as they have in the past. It makes perfect sense from the Iranian perspective. They already have the missile technology. All they need is the nuclear material, and soon they'll be in a position to make all the enriched uranium they'll need. Israel isn't worried about the day Iran actually has a bomb as much as the day when they can make a bomb in a matter of months on demand. Once that line is crossed then Israeli freedom of action in any crisis is compromised.

After all, Israel cannot afford to ever lose a war. If the Israelis take Cairo or Damascus then eventually they will leave and some new situation arises between those states and Israel. If Tel Aviv falls then Israel is extinguished forever. We're living at the brink of an awful and inevitable war and your denial of it is ridiculous, Putin33.

War is inevitable- simple minded and self fulfilling

War is innevitable, forget the peace talks
War is inevitable, put social justice on the back burner
War is inevitable, trample on human rights
War is inevitable, ignore the international community

This is the unbridled idiocy that assures Israel will not have a future, and it breaks my heart.

Invictus you're always claiming catastrophe is around the corner. Every other thread you predict impending doom.

"It's equally Arafat and Israel's fault. Read what I write."

And yet the Arab states that all hate Israel want the US to go to war with Iran and are the lead cheerleaders for war with Iran, so how does that work, if this is all about Palestine? Why hate on Iran if they all want Israel gone? Riddle me that.

"It does. The Ayatollah said as much this week, as if the past thirty years haven't been enough proof."

What was the quote, because all know how you warmongers like to invent quotes that never existed, like the "wipe off the map" quote that never happened. Iran's attitude toward Israel is the same as the US's treatment of the Soviet Union. They want the regime gone, not the people.

"No one here called you a Nazi or said someone who disagreed was a Nazi. Reductio ad hitlerum."

Emac invoked the gas chambers in his reply to the issue of funding the gruesome MEK assassins.

"Read what I write."

Yeah, 'rejection of the peace plans (there was no 'peace plan)' was your initial comment. Then you backpedal and talk about how Israel was "opaque". Good save.

And I'm a fool? No you just don't know what you're talking about. Give up.

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2006/issue4/jv10no4a7.html

"War is inevitable" - classical realism

Anyways, this issue is not singly about Iran dominating Israel. It's about Iran trying to dominate the entire Mid-East. That's why the Arab states are against Iran. Some are probably motivated by religion, but mostly I believe its competing for regional power. If Iran has nukes, then it can do whatever it wants and be sure that the U.S. won't respond with as much force as they would otherwise.

What Israel is doing is smart. Other nations have been using asymmetric warfare against Israel for years, so its fine time they found an indirect way of attacking Iran. What better way to destroy a nuclear program than to kill the knowledge at its center. Also, anyone notice all those explosions at military bases back in November? And Stuxnet? Israel doesn't need to go to war at this rate and depending on what the IAEA reports they might have the support of the global community in an attack as well.

I think we can all agree here that nuclear proliferation is a bad thing, and we should try to stop any nation, regardless of who they are (Sweden, Spain, Argentina, Gabon, etc) from getting nuclear weapons.

""It's equally Arafat and Israel's fault. Read what I write."

And yet the Arab states that all hate Israel want the US to go to war with Iran and are the lead cheerleaders for war with Iran, so how does that work, if this is all about Palestine? Why hate on Iran if they all want Israel gone? Riddle me that."

Well, they still don't want a new Persian Empire. You're mixing a lot of stuff up.

I'm not happy that it looks like the only way to solve the issue is in the aftermath of a major Middle East war. That's a nightmare scenario. I just don't see how Israel can live with a nuclear Iran supporting Hamas and Hezbollah, groups which explicitly call for Israel's destruction. And with a nuclear Iran supporting such a position you can hardly expect the Palestinian leadership to settle for just having the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. So how is it resolved? When one side loses unambiguously.

I hope I'm wrong but... I really can't see another way.

"Israel needs to suffer a defeat"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyDrP2EsYGo

"What better way to destroy a nuclear program than to kill the knowledge at its center. "

Fantastic. Another assassin calling for the murder of scientists. And yet you trolls constantly prattle on about your supposed adoration of human rights and liberty.

"I hope I'm wrong but... I really can't see another way."

You never can. You're like that messianic nutball who predicts the end of the world every 3 years.

"What better way to destroy a nuclear program than to kill the knowledge at its center. "

So in your mind it would have been fair game for the Nazis to have sent teams of assassins to New Mexico to murder the scientists working on the Manhattan Project in 1944?

@Tolstoy - yes, in my mind it would have been fair game. Scientists are no longer civilians if they're working for the military