Actually, before you do that, define "God."

@AverageWhiteBoy: Why must something be proven for one to believe in it? For example, do you believe that anything besides your own mind exists? I'm sure you do, if you don't, then this argument doesn't apply. So anyway, I want you to prove that anything besides your own mind exists, and isn't just a figment of your imagination. Can you do it?

"Why must something be proven for one to believe in it?"

Yeah, not arguing with you anymore. If you say something as stupid as that, I'm dismissing you entirely.

@AverageWhiteBoy: God, to me, is an all-powerful, all-knowing, being who created time and the universe. Before the universe, there wasn't time, which is why God wasn't created. He was just there. It's very similar to my hypothetical situation above: If the entire universe is just a figment of your imagination, then your consciosness is just there. It wouldn't have been created, it would just be.

@smiley: Who says I can't prove it :P Well, I can't prove it beyond a doubt, but I might be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. But that's not the point. I want to ask you the same question I asked the other guy: do you believe that anything besides your own mind exists? I'm sure you do, if you don't, then this argument doesn't apply. So anyway, I want you to prove that anything besides your own mind exists, and isn't just a figment of your imagination. Can you do it?

I'm tired of explaining Bayesian belief theory to people.

Beliefs are not binary, they are probability estimates. Until you stop talking in terms of "belief" and start talking in terms of "I estimate this fact about nature to have a probability of X" then you can not have a productive discussion.

Again? :/

We just had this...

I WILL, however, argue something else:

@Smiley:

"Why must something be proven for one to believe in it?"

Contrary to your position, I'd say for you to BELIEVE anything, it CANNOT be proven, that is, I cannot BELIEVE 2+2=4, that's FACTUALLY PROVEN...no room for BELIEF.

For something that's as unsubstantiated and wild and, logically, quite possibly impossible as God...all there is for God is belief, there's no 2+2=4 for God, he's an utterly unproven and probably unprovable phenomenon or idea...hence, we can only ever BELIEVE in God--or not, I'm DEFINITELY fine with that--but can never treat God as 2+2=Intelligent Design...

No matter how badly Kansas would like us to. ;)

So, yeah, I disagree--you CAN believe in something as potentially-ludicrous as God, precisely because he's NOT proven; once something becomes proven fact, you can no longer "believe" in it.

The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/

stoned spider +1 though that's not gonna convince any atheists. And anyway, there is evidence :)

Kierkegaard said faith was believing in the impossible.

I think we can both agree to that definition of it...belief and faith are seperated from logic, and MUST remain so...

Because the second you make it a "probability estimate," some yahoo from Kansas--I really hope no one is from there here, I give it such a hard time--will come along and say:

"Oh, so there's even a .0000000000000001% chance there's a God? HA! COMPETEING THEORIES! See, now we MUST teach Intelligent Design, it's POSSIBLE, right?"

Let belief confine itself to the impossibility of story books, and let it be no more.

A God who is believed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and can do only good acts can not be present in this universe, because evil acts take place. That god would know evil is taking place, since he knows everything, and could stop it, since his power is limitless. In fact would be compelled to stop it, since he's thought of as entirely good. However, he fails to stop evil from happening, so he is not omnipotent, or not omniscient, or is capable of allowing evil to happen. Because of this, the God portrayed in the monotheistic religions can not exist.

The argument from free will does nothing to save God from the problem of evil. A being arbitrarily powerful could stop evil from happening in subtle ways which do take away free will.

If God is all-powerful can it create more all-powerful beings?

Hahahahahahaha. Free will. Funny.

"Why must something be proven for one to believe in it?"

Wait, are we here so you can ask me to believe in something, or to debate the existence of something? This bait-and-switch is very un-Christian of you. A just God would strike you down where you sit.

"For example, do you believe that anything besides your own mind exists?"

Are you drawing a parallel between "God" and "things that I can perceive" in terms of believablility by flirting with solipsism? No, I am not a solipsist. For all practical purposes, I do have to "believe" that things I can perceive exist, unless I think I've had too much and it's time to lie down. But I have NEVER, in any of my most open-minded, expanded-consciousness one-with-the-universe states of expanded sensory perception, encountered anything that could be described as a "god."

"I'm sure you do, if you don't, then this argument doesn't apply."

And if I do, it's still not much of an argument.

"So anyway, I want you to prove that anything besides your own mind exists, and isn't just a figment of your imagination. Can you do it?"

I call your appeal to mock the very concept of faith by accepting the existence of things that I perceive, and raise you one eternity of damnation at the hands of Calfta, the Firey Golden Troll, idol AND true god of Internet religious debates. Calfta is a polytheist.

new direction - how is the existance of other religions which also claim to believe in an absolute being addressed by christianity, or whatever you believe in? As I see it, they all call each other liars, but nobody has any more credibiliy than the next.

+1 for the chuckle at free will, Smiley...

I'm taking bets--

How many posts for this thread before it, like God, "vanishes in a poof of logic?"

Over or under 200?

If God exists, does it control our every action, some, or none?

@smiley: Now, I don't know anything about Bayesian theory, so if I make some incorrect assumptions about it, please correct me. But I will say that when you're talking about the probability of God existing, that is not as mathematical and logical as, say, the probablility of getting a roll of 6 with a die. There are way too many variables whose probabilities can't be figured out, so really, any probablility between 0% and 100% is just not knowing. Any percentage is really just pulled out of your ass (and remember, 73.6537% percent of statistics are pulled out of someone's ass). And I'll admit it is not 100% certain that God exists. However, I choose to have faith that he does.

Whoever believes in God, do you also believe in destiny?

Conservative your wrong the statistic is 80% on the dot.

"God, to me, is an all-powerful, all-knowing, being who created time and the universe."

God sounds like a physics theory. The ground rules for provable physics theories are very clearly laid out by the people whose job it is to theorize about black holes so we can build better smartphones and stuff.

"Before the universe, there wasn't time, which is why God wasn't created."

Because "created before time" doesn't make sense. Creation implies something happening in sequence "before" there is time, which would imply the pre-existence of time. Can't have that.

"He was just there."

Uh huh.

"It's very similar to my hypothetical situation above: If the entire universe is just a figment of your imagination, then your consciosness is just there. It wouldn't have been created, it would just be."

Alright, we've established that I'm not a solipsist. Hell, I'll even go so far as to acknowledge YOUR existence, even though you only exist to me as text on a laptop screen. STILL not buying the God thing.

How did you make the logical jump from "It's really complicated" to "All probabilities must just be pulled out of your ass."?

@Conservative Man
Could you also define time? Do you mean time as how we perceive it?

" want you to prove that anything besides your own mind exists, and isn't just a figment of your imagination. Can you do it?"

lol dude you dont even want to go there with me

@stevelers: "A being arbitrarily powerful could stop evil from happening in subtle ways which do take away free will." Not necessarily. Being all-powerful doesn't mean he can do logically impossible things. For example, God couldn't fly in the air, under his own power, whilst staying in one piece, while still leaving his feet on the ground. That is logically impossible. And I believe that stopping evil without interfering with free-will is also logically impossible.

May I ask a question, God Believers?

Let's grant your Cosmic Father's existance for JUST a moment...

LEt's even grant the ludicrous notion that he gave you "free will" and so even though he has a perfect plan according to you it's also up to you to love him and be a good person and if you fail it's your fault and not his.

NOW...

If God GAVE YOU FREE WILL...HE IS STILL THE ROOT CAUSE of any and all actions, yes? Because if he isn't well, then who gave you free will?

So, either God gave you free will, in which case you don't have it as it's merely part of God's overal causal plan for you to have it, or he didn't and you don't have free will.

So, no free will vs. no free will.

How do we have free will, then, again?

If the existence/non-existence of a divine over-entity is the only thing qualifying the philosophy you adhere to, then there are some serious flaws to your logic.
God may or may not exist, there isn't any evidence to go either way, but if your personal belief system hinges on something that cannot be proven/disproven rather than the inherent merits of certain ideals then you shouldn't be pursuing religion in the first place.
Any competent religion should be able to stand on its own should you remove any divine implications.