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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Crazyter (1335 D(G))
14 Aug 10 UTC
Extreme Board Contest
Accepting Nominations for the most extreme-looking boards on this site, for example "ugliest," "most attractive", "funniest". Include link to the game you are nominating.
17 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
Ancient Med Winning Threshold
How many SC's do I need to take to win an Ancient Med game?
3 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1233 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
A live one
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=36085

Bet is 101, full press.
6 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1233 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
Jesus fuck, I am in the worst goddam gunboat ever
Russia quits when they are the largest power on the board. Austria's a total moron who has completely ignored the growth of a huge Turkey in order to persist in attacking Italy, and England is getting gutted like a sea bass because he wants to attack France and Germany simultaneously, while they're attacking each other. Yecch, this game sucks.
39 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1233 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
A live game, starting on the hour
gameID=36080

PM me or respond in this thread for the password to a WTA game with a stake of 25.
0 replies
Open
Pantalone (2043 D(S))
18 Aug 10 UTC
New Live Game - Commedia dell"Arte LIVE 8 - gameID=36059
What better way to spend your lunch break today...? (Western European Summer Time).
33 replies
Open
Can I bump with an unspported convoy?
thanks in advance for any help
8 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE
I just read an interesting editorial in my local paper. See below. (Wait for me to post first)
194 replies
Open
Kaiasian (624 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
What's with the gunboat?
Why is gunboat so popular here? I can't find a standard game without a password.
7 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
16 Aug 10 UTC
Sitterness
I am having some 'challenges' at the office and need to ensure that I can concentrate on them for the next two weeks; trying to see if anyone can sit for me
10 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
18 Aug 10 UTC
error message in Ancient Med game
"Parameter 'fromTerrID' set to invalid value '3'." appeared
when I tried to save my orders. I will attempt to PM Kestas the details.

5 replies
Open
Face to Face Help...
Trying to set up a face to face game with friends but we don't have a board and we'll likly have a hard time finding on. Is there a way to use a web site as the board? A way to have on admin input all the moves and have it play out?

19 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Cars
What do you own? What's your dream car?
99 replies
Open
diplonerd (173 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
Ancient Med Live
Anyone down?

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=36053
1 reply
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
17 Aug 10 UTC
HIgh stakes PPSC Live Anon Gunboat
gameID=36029 Starts in 30 minutes.

Above all, please keep it classy.
18 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
18 Aug 10 UTC
gunboat live wta
8 replies
Open
Face to Face Help.
Is there a website that will allow me have one person (an admin) to input all the nations moves and let it play out? That way I don't have to buy a board game and we don't have to deal with peaces getting moved. Anyother way to use a computer to manage a face to face game?
2 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
You don't own other people.
So stop trying
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Sicarius (673 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
Laws against peaceful, consensual activity always seem to be in the news. Dianne Feinstein takes a hardline stance against marijuana law reform. Raids on raw milk distributors are a regular occurrence. Every little while a story breaks about another “family values” politician soliciting a prostitute who turns out to be an undercover cop.

A sizable share of people in the criminal justice system is made up of those who ran afoul of some law commanding “Touch not, taste not, handle not.”

If you support such laws, there is no ground on which you can consistently do so without believing that other people are your property, or are your inferiors and subject to your command.

You may argue that “society” collectively decides what to permit and not to permit, based on some vision of the “common good.” But remember those high school civics texts with the stuff about government exercising only powers delegated by the governed, government’s function being to protect the rights of the individual, and all that? Well, you can’t delegate a power you don’t have. And government can’t protect a right, on your behalf, that you don’t possess as an individual.

So you can’t delegate to government the power to tell other people what foods or drugs to ingest, or who to have sex with, unless you, as an individual, already have the right to boss other people around. You as an individual, or in acting together with any number of other individuals, cannot delegate to government the power to boss people around against their will in regard to peaceful and consensual actions, unless you own them. “Society” has a right to criminalize peaceful, voluntary behavior only if each individual is the property of society as a whole.

Roderick Long of the Molinari Institute (the parent body of Center for a Stateless Society) describes it as a simple matter of equality. If other people are your equals in dignity, authority, and self-determination, you don’t have the right to tell them what to do. You can’t boss another person around about their food or drug habits, or their sexual practices, unless they’re your subordinate in some sense. You’ve probably seen a kid tell some bossy stranger, or remember telling someone yourself years ago, “You’re not my daddy!” Exactly.

We anarchists don’t believe other people are our property. We don’t believe we have the authority to tell other people what to eat, drink, smoke, or who to have sex with. We’re not their boss. We don’t own them. And we have no right to act through the government to do things we have no legitimate authority to do as individuals. In other words, we anarchists actually believe the things the authors of your civics texts claimed to believe.

The big difference is, we’re consistent about it. We judge all groupings of individuals, even groupings that claim to represent a majority of people in a community and call themselves a “government,” by the same moral principles that govern individuals. The legiminate powers an individual possesses — the right to life, liberty and property, and the consequent power to defend those rights without harm to innocents — can be exercised cooperatively by any number of individuals in concert.

But even if they comprise a majority of people in a community, they have no rightful authority to bind those who did not freely join their cooperative venture. No group, including a group made up of a majority of individuals in a community, has any powers or rights beyond those already possessed by its individual members. Individuals cannot delegate any powers to a government that they do not possess as individuals.

Like any other association, a government exists for the ends of its members, and has no authority over anyone outside it. The state has no aura of majesty, and exercises no divine power. Like any other human association, it has only those legitimate powers which individual human beings can rightfully grant in the first place.

If you, as an individual, go to your neighbor’s house and order him to stop smoking dope or parking his car on the lawn, and shove him around or take him prisoner for refusing to comply, you’re nothing but a thug. Your neighbor has the right to tell you to mind your own business and leave him alone, and to resist your aggression if necessary. If you and a large number of other people in the community do the same thing to your neighbor, under cover of a so-called “government,” you’re still just thugs — plain and simple. And your neighbor has just as much right to tell you all to mind your own business, or to resist if necessary.

As an individual, or as a member of a group of individuals — no matter how large — you don’t own other people.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
"the right to life, liberty and property"

I thought you opposed property rights? I certainly remember Pandora posting about why shoplifting from a large corporation wasn't a problem.
Darwyn (1601 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
This article has a similar message...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/yearoftheslave.html
Even though I'm no longer an anarchist, I still say: Sicarius +1
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
btw, this is the original piece, with credits:

http://blogs.alternet.org/c4ss/
Invictus (240 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
How hard is it to cite stuff right off the bat, Biff?

I don't see much wrong with this stolen blog post, but it also doesn't sound like the sort of anarchism Sicarius has been spouting for so long. This is just broad libertarianism, with some crazy anti-state lines thrown in for good measure. I'm all for liberty, but taking some of the points in this pretty piece of Sicarian plagiarism to their logical conclusions would sacrifice law and order.

While there is a serious problem about government losing respect for an individual's human dignity and thinking it has no limits, phrasing it as "owning people" turns off a wider audience to address those problems. It just sounds crazy and over simplifies the problem.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
To be fair, the European concept of government (where government is the granter rather than protector of rights) certainly does imply nothing less than slavery- if the government grants rights, then it has the right to withdraw said rights and render its people slaves.
Sicarius (673 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
private property and personal property are different.
centurion1 (1478 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
I hate naivete
Sicarius (673 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
Also, why would I need to cite this? It's not like theres any statistics that need to be verified. Whether I include the author or not all the points are still there. Anyway forum dwellers prove time and time again they have no problem locating the original (to.... idk, shove in my face that they know how to use google?)
Invictus (240 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
Asking why you need to cite other people's words is like asking why you need to wear pants.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
It is nothing more than a note of respect for the author to provide a link to the page you took something from, if you intend to lift it completely.

Anyway, given:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_property

That seems to imply personal property.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
14 Aug 10 UTC
You are a fraud, Sicarius.
Sicarius (673 D)
14 Aug 10 UTC
http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionB3
private/personal property
Anarchists define "private property" (or just "property," for short) as state-protected monopolies of certain objects or privileges which are used to control and exploit others. "Possession," on the other hand, is ownership of things that are not used to exploit others (e.g. a car, a refrigerator, a toothbrush, etc.). Thus many things can be considered as either property or possessions depending on how they are used.

Why DO I need to wear pants?
outside of situations where they serve as protection (from weather, thorns etc.)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
okay.

So would some form of capital, such as machinery, count as private property? And indeed, a business?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
If I understand correctly, can I ask in what way objects that are "private property" are state protected, but objects that are "possessions" aren't. I cannot see the justification for making a distinction there.
Sicarius (673 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
I think the distinction is mostly situational.
Sicarius (673 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
that was a reply to 8:03 post

largeham (149 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Private property does refer to large scale capital, such as land (that is not to say one should open his house to all and sundry, but say property investments, etc), or machinery and etc. However, this definition can differ between different groups and people.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
There is a school of libertarian thought which holds that property that was not the product of human labor (i.e., the undeveloped value of land, natural resources, etc.) cannot be owned by a person, since these things are a product of nature and not human labor. They are instead 'owned' by the state, on behalf of society as a whole (which, as now, 'rents' the title to the land out to people in exchange for property taxes). Libertarians who believe this are called Geo-Libertarians, or Georgists (after Henry George, the 19th century California political theorist). Their argument is that since things like land, forests, oil and mineral deposits, etc. are not the product of human labor, they cannot be owned by anyone (or, perhaps more accurately, are owned in common by everyone), so The State has a right to charge those who use them to provide for all those things we're told the state alone can provide for everyone's benefit (law enforcement/courts of law, national defense, etc. And yes, I realize there are anarcho-capitalist and radical minarchist arguments against cops, courts, and armies - which I generally agree with).

So for instance, my house is worth $30,000 and the ground the house sits on it is worth $40,000, for a combined value of $70,000 (which is what I paid for it last year; the ground vs. structure value is broken down on my property tax bill). Under geo-Libertarianism The State has a right to tax the $40,000 worth of land value, but not the $30,000 house sitting on top of it in Geo-Libertarianism. The State also has a right to tax things like oil wells by how much they produce (since no one created the oil), but not oil refineries (since the refined product *is* the result of human labor).

Under this theory, a business would have the right to own the machinery it uses without owing anything (taxes) to anyone, but not the ground their business sits upon (for which they must, as now, pay property taxes - although these property taxes would not include the value of the building and all other improvements to the land which the business uses).
mapleleaf (0 DX)
15 Aug 10 UTC
I own you, Sicarius.
Invictus (240 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
This Georgism sound interesting, but also silly and unworkable. I get it, but it won't work. For one thing, how would you handle domestic animals like cows?

It's interesting. It's ridiculous. It's like most political theories.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Unworkable? Property taxes have the highest compliance rates of all taxes in the United States. Georgism simply seeks to legitimize (some) property taxes. If Georgism is 'silly and unworkable', then so is the existing system of property taxes. Is that really what you're arguing?

As for domestic animals, I can see an argument both ways. This really isn't a problem; governments and tax agencies make decisions like this all the time already - but since there is no consistent philosophy behind the existing tax system, it produces some really wacky results. For example, here in California, hot sandwiches are subject to sales tax, but cold sandwiches are not. If you go to a fast food place and dine in, you get taxed, but if you tell them it's to go, they're not supposed to tax you (although most establishments do, since most of their food is hot and therefore taxable on that basis, and most vendors aren't willing to not charge and risk a fine from the Board of Equalization (the bureaucracy which handles sales taxes in California)). Why is this? No one really knows. It just is. There are plenty of examples like this (such as many of the tax deductions/loopholes placed in the tax code by any of the hundreds of powerful special interest lobbies). The existing tax system is far sillier than anything a Georgist tax regime would produce.
Invictus (240 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Yeah, the current tax laws are ridiculous too. Georgism sounds like it would be almost as ridiculous if it were put in practice. Replacing one loony method with another seems pretty pointless to me.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Ought not an equally complicated system be preferred if it can be more justified in principle and hopefully more just as a result?

Unless you think that a Georgist tax regime is less or similarly justified by political principles.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Okay... So what is the completely unridiculous alternative you espouse, Invictus?
Tolstoy (1962 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
And as for the complexity of property taxes/Georgism... of all the taxes I pay (being a subject of the State of California and a business owner, I pay *a lot* of money for *many* different taxes), I find property taxes the simplest to understand and the least onerous/oppressive/frustrating of all taxes I pay. I'm not completely sold on Georgism/geolibertarianism, but it would definitely be a great improvement over the fusterclucks that exist now.
Sicarius (673 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC

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Sicarius (673 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
man it's kinda off.
shit.


fail
Interesting. Interesting indeed. I must ask, Sicarius, why are you so negative? You come across as the kind of person who has lost faith in everything, especially big government. Have you always been an anarchist? Honestly. I'm not going to try and argue with you. I'm just curious.

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66 replies
LordVipor (566 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
Quick question about move, can't find in test cases
Lets say a territory T is surrounded by five countries/seas, lets name them A, B, C, D, and E.
T, A, B, C, and D all have armies in them
(Continued below)
9 replies
Open
anlari (8640 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
Convoy failure - why?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=34039

Can anyone tell me why Russia's convoy failed?
4 replies
Open
sayonara123 (100 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
I have a question.
I just joined a live game (there are all 7 players) and it said the game will start on the next proccess cycle. What's a proccess cycle?
4 replies
Open
jmeyersd (4240 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
Gunboat Done Properly
I've tried three gunboat games today, all of which have been spoiled by no-shows and cds. Frankly, I find it ridiculous that 3 games be ruined this way. If anyone is interested in doing it properly, I will create a 50 point buy-in game scheduled to start in 30 minutes. If you join, show up.
35 replies
Open
acmac10 (120 D(B))
17 Aug 10 UTC
locked symbol next to some threads.....
ok i was looking back at some of the old threads and they have locks....

i cant post on them...are they too old or something?
2 replies
Open
Julien (2065 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
New gunboat live game - join now!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35986
23 replies
Open
Julien (2065 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
one more player needed for a live game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35976
1 reply
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
17 Aug 10 UTC
A new Ancient Med game, 101 bet PPSC!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35982

La Plus Ancienne...c'est bon!
0 replies
Open
svenson (101 D)
17 Aug 10 UTC
Country Statistics
I was going to post a suggestion that a feature that allowed us to view our country statistics including how we ended the games with each one and our percentages would be a really cool feature.
1 reply
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
15 Aug 10 UTC
The best band ever
See inside
154 replies
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
17 Aug 10 UTC
Gunboat - please keep it classy
gameID=35965

Starts in 30. Usual theme. Don't CD. read orders. Please finalize.
1 reply
Open
Benibo (727 D)
16 Aug 10 UTC
Can a fleet at Constantinople convoy?
Can a fleet placed in Constantinople convoy an army?
Same question with Denmark.
Thanks in advance.
5 replies
Open
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