The US had determined that it would have 7 nukes ready for deployment by the time the invasion was to start. "Scientists" said that one should not enter a nuked city for al least 48 hours (that is a good idea..). General Douglas MacArthur was to lead the invasion and about a million American and over 5 million jap casaulties were estimated. Many more if the jap civilians decided to fight which was a real possibility

I would have bombed the hell out of the islands for as long as there were bombs so as not to lose american lives

I'll go first.

I would send the following message to the Japanese command:
"To the Japanese command. Your country is on the verge of destruction. If you do not respond with an unconditional surrender in the next 72 hours, we will begin a naval blockade and sustained fire bombing of all of your islands. The only way we will stop the bombing and stop the blockade is if you unconditionally surrender. If you surrender unconditionally, we will provide massive amounts of humanitarian aid to your country. Please do not allow us to destroy your beautiful country."

If they did not surrender, I would place a naval blockade around all of the Japanese islands, and begin immediate sustained carpet firebombing until the entire country was completely destroyed. Then, I would attack all islands at the same time from the east with armour-reinforced marines and Seabees. I would put General Patton in charge of all ground operations, and commence with an armoured drive down the length of each island. Spearheading the advance would be Marine Raiders and armour-reinforced airborne soldiers. After conquering every island, I would coat the country with napalm to ensure that every coward underground would suffocate. The entire time, the US Army Air Force and the US Navy would pound Japan with naval gunfire and sustained tactical and strategic conventional bombing.

There already *was* a blockade, and they were firebombing cities as quickly as they could turn the aircraft around.

The planned invasion of the Home Islands was known as Operation Downfall; there are plenty of resources out there on it.

I mean step it up a notch. As in, every Allied combat aircraft that could get off the ground under its own power and with a load of bombs would be bombing Japan nonstop, only landing to rearm and refuel. Until they gave up or Japan was a wasteland.

@TMW The Emperor did avoid detainment by only by blind luck during a coup. An over flight of B29s and the ensuing blackout, and alarms confused the officers during the attempt, saving the Emperor. That much could of happened. Pattons fighting style was not compatable with what was going on in the Pacific. From the East? That would have complicated logistics that are already stressed. Spreading out to all the islands breaks the rule of concentration of force. The Japanese would not have been a push over even after we had bombed all the cities and etc. You really need to read what happened at Okinawa. Infact you need to read a lot more about strategy and tactics, logistics, and military history in general. Many of your ideals are simplistic, it's like you get your ideals from playing Axis and Allies.

I mean, the US was pretty reluctant to have an invasion, which is one of the reasons they started bombing in the first place. Also, you have to remember that Russia had declared war on Japan as well, which is another major contribution to why they surrendered. There's evidence that the Americans weren't letting the Japanese surrender until they had used the atomic bomb as well.

But slightly more on-topic, the bombs were also for a psycological attack on the Russians, and an incredibly expensive one at that. I think the US would have continued firebombings, because after a point you sort of run out of targets. There's a reason they picked the cities they did.

The ideal that the US was trying to impress the Soviets is none sense. You assume that the US foresaw the Cold War, which it did not. The attitude of most was of an idealistic peaceful future with the Soviet Union. Only a handful thought other wise and were ostersized for it. The Soviets were not any threat to the home islands. Unless we supplied the means they would have to swim to get there. What evidence? How do stop someone from surrendering? Another conspiracy theory. The Japanese radicals where doing a damn good job them selves, and almost stopped the surrender. Sure we left some cities untouched. How else could we best impress the Japanese and see for are selves the effects of the new weapon on a city.

So then why didn't the US inform them about the Manhattan Project and was very strongly anti-Communist during this period? People who were slightly too sympathetic to the left during that period were often barred from doing work on the bomb for fear of them releasing it to the Soviets. That's completely false, they almost didn't hire Oppenheimer for being too liberal.

Sorry, I worded that badly. The US was looking for a completely unconditional surrender, and the Japanese were afraid of the emperor being detained.

That point was about how America probably would have stopped nuking Japan after a while. There is no point in using a multi-billion dollar weapon on the ruins of a city, it's much more effective to just firebomb the rest.

Your confusing peaceful coexsistance with complete trust. Even the Brits were kept out after we learned what we could from their scientist. Yes card holding comminist were kept out, but many who were working on the Bomb did have Socialist ties and Soviet sympathies. How else did so much info about the Bomb get to Stalins desk. Also I was referring to the political establishment in DC. Some of the cabinet members were far more liberal than FDR, they were the makers of policies. Yes US wanted unconditional surrender just as in Germany, and was part of the understanding among the allies not just the US. Few if any Americans could understand the view of the average Japanese had of the Emperor as God incarnate. Do not forget there was also alot anger at Japan because of Pearl Harbor. Yes there is, one plane one bomb. To fire bomb a city it takes a lot planes with a lot men on board that could be shot down, or just crash by accident. It was not just about cost in dollors. Besides the more you make, more the cost per unit goes down. Than there is the impression one big bang makes compared to bunch of small ones.

To the first post,

I would think that there would have have to have been an invasion and it would have been terribly bloody.

Afterwords there would have been allied occupation zones like in Germany and Austria, which would probably have turned into North and South Japan.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/thumb/0/08/Divided_Japan.png/300px-Divided_Japan.png
What happens to China's zone after the Communists win the Chinese Civil War? Would the Soviet Union insist on Red China getting it? Would Britain or the US take it over? Would it have carried on in some bizarre legal limbo? If you thought cross-straight relations in the early fifties were tense in our real history just imagine how potentially explosive they'd be with the Russians in a much, much stronger position geopolitically.

This would have completely changed the balance of power in Asia. The Korean War could not have been fought as it was with thousands of Soviet troops in Japan. It would probably have escalated into a Third World War if something before hadn't triggered it. A stronger Soviet Union would just have made the US and UK more nervous and Churchill's Operation Unthinkable might have been taken more seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

Very bad scenario for freedom and peace.

Whatever might have happened, I'm glad it didn't. My Grandfather was slated for the invasion of mainland Japan. If Truman hadn't called in the bombs, I might not be herer today.

@ warsprite

Their defenses on their east/southeast would be the weakest, because that's the least likely place for an invasion. Also, how would that complicate logistics. The boats sail around to the east, and start dropping off Higgins boats full of marines. Fairly straightforward.

Patton was brilliant when it came to full-scale armoured advances, which is what my invasion plan calls for. Also, I've had four years of ROTC school, so don't criticize me until you get more education. AFROTC, but still ROTC. Read before criticizing next time.

You've had *four years* of AFROTC, and they didn't teach you about the intensity of the allied air campaign against mainland Japan at the close of the Second World War?

I don't know whether to call you on bullshit or cry for the future of my nation

They did. They said that it was all B-29s. What about the rest of the Allied air power? Oh, and I don't call regular bombing raids for a few months "full-out carpet firebombing"

From wikipedia:

"In the last seven months of the campaign, a change to firebombing tactics resulted in great destruction of 67 Japanese cities, as many as 500,000 Japanese deaths and some 5 million more made homeless."

"The first raid of this type on Tokyo was on the night of 23–24 February when 174 B-29s destroyed around one square mile (3 km²) of the city. Following on that success 334 B-29s raided on the night of 9–10 March, dropping around 1,700 tons of bombs. Around 16 square miles (41 km²) of the city was destroyed and over 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the fire storm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. It was the most destructive conventional raid in all of history. The city was made primarily of wood and paper, and Japanese firefighting methods were not up to the challenge. The fires burned out of control, boiling canal water and causing entire blocks of buildings to spontaneously combust from the heat.

In the following two weeks, there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km²) in total at a cost of 22 aircraft. By June, over forty percent of the urban area of Japan's largest six cities (Tokyo, Nagoya, Kobe, Osaka, Yokohama, and Kawasaki) was devastated. LeMay's fleet of nearly 600 bombers destroyed tens of smaller cities and manufacturing centers in the following weeks and months."

I think most people *would* call this full-out carpet firebombing. There was nothing regular about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the US use B-29s because of the range? Where would the rest of our air power be based? Could it have even reached Japan?

Although strategic bombing was more "showy" and perhaps more in your face for the Japanese at home, I'd argue the submarine war on Japan's merchant fleet made as big of an impact (if not more so). I don't know if it was necessary to invade. The US could have starved Japan into submission.

It's all academic anyways. History "what-ifs" are kind of silly.

Japan is a very mountainous land. An armor attack would face the same problems as the Allies had in Italy. The ships would have to go through the straits between Korea and Japan. While dodging the reefs and small islands they would be more vulnable to attack and it would ad hundreds of miles to the logistic pipe line, and you would have to maintain that pipeline while under attack. Considering the number of ships lost from kamakazes during the Okinawa invasion, I would hate to be on any fleet entering the Sea of Japan. I've rarely been impressed by ROTC officers, some are all most as bad as 4 week wonders. The most dangerous thing on the battlefield is a ROTC Lieutenant with a map.

Yes the B29 are the only bombers with range needed. Even at that the northern area was out of range and the US was opening bases in the Aleutian Islands to correct that.

"They did. They said that it was all B-29s. What about the rest of the Allied air power? Oh, and I don't call regular bombing raids for a few months "full-out carpet firebombing"

*headdesk*

The other aircraft were either:
a) In Europe or
b) lacked the range
c) on aircraft carriers, which were vulnerable to kamikazi attack, and had a smaller bomb loads

I'm sorry, I try to not be an ass about these things, but I just *have* to say this:

DUH!

Capture Korea and launch B-17s and B-24s from there, in addition to naval bombardment from battleships and naval aircraft. Also, starve them out. And lengthen the whole campaign by a year or two. Sustained. Nonstop. As in, resupply convoys sailing around the clock at flank speed. As in, bombers pelting Japan nonstop. As in, battleships on station for months at a time, constantly firing at coastal targets around the clock. As in, nonstop air raids around the clock.

And, stratagos, the war in Europe was over by April 1945. Move the forces in Europe to the Pacific.

You can't just pop them in a godddam fedex box, moving millions of troops takes time. Not to mention the whole Occupation of Germany and Don't Encourage the Russians To Take All Of Europe thing.

As I said before, they were *already starving* - the economy of Japan was in shambles.

And capture Korea? So you can get hammered by all the kamizaki aircraft in Japan proper *and* those on the Asian mainland? Have you considered *looking at a map*, perhaps?

Warsprite +1: Give me a veteran Gunny any day over a ROTC or fresh out of the academy Lt. Heck, I'd rather follow a basic E5 Sgt over a fresh-faced kid officer.

Let's assume the Soviets don't take Korea first (although they will). How does the US supply our troops there?

How do you deal with a home front that wants the war wrapped up?

Given that in the real world we were running out of targets, how do you justify blasting Japan into rubble? We essentially bombard a bunch of starving civilians in the ruins of their homes? Do we become like the Axis powers to win the war?

@TMW - you need to do a little research into just what happens to supply convoys and what they take to pull off. Gilbraltar had the roughest time getting resupplied because supply ships move slow and are big freaking targets that even their escorts can't fully protect.

@grumbledook: The Allies already had become similar to the Axis powers to win the war, via nuking and firebombing. We basically annihilated an entire city (Dresden) once, using incendiary bombs, burning the entire city down (with at least 30k dead). Then, we did the same thing to Japan and then nuked them, at which point the emporor did the smart thing and surrendered.

@stratagos: The ones who weren't starving were dead from the carpet bombing, so it wouldn't have mattered either way.

@ Draugnar Basic Training 1976 Ft Dix: Are 2nd Lt almost marched the entire company into firing range impact zone (also used by the nearby Air Force base). If it had not been for the NCOs who knows?

Oh geez... That puts you as one of those a little older than me. USMC - did basic at Parris Island, SC - Aug-Oct 1984. Luckily, the Marines only use Corporal through Gunny Sgt as Dis (and only Sgt through Gunny can be the Senior DI). We had a Lt (1st Lt) in charge of our company and a Captain in charge of the batallion. I believe it was Major General who was in command of all of Parris Island. But they were ther for administrative, disciplinary, and greivance moderation purposes. They never lead recruits into the field.

@TMW Taking Korea! Your grasping at straws. Look at a *detailed* map, you know the kind that shows the rivers, reefs, wooded areas, and uses those brown lines to show mountain and valley elevations. Also "Arm chair generals talk tactics and strategies, real generals talk of logistics".