Here is an example of an argument of why it is wrong for white people to wear black hairstyles.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/white-people-black-hairstyles/
Personally I don't really understand the arguments. They seem illogical to me, but I have been told that as a white person it is not up to me to decide what is racist and what is not racist.

Cultural (mis)appropriation is one of those incredibly handy phrases that a particular group of irritating people use to warn you it's not worth listening to them.

Some forms of cultural (mis)appropriation are clearer than others, and in some cases it can clearly be inappropriate, especially when it is used insultingly, or reinforces prejudicial stereotypes.

For example, I'm sure if spyman started going out in public wearing blackface, and insisted on everyone calling him "nigga", it wouldn't be surprising for some people to find that somewhat questionable or offensive.

What is illogical? Do people who mock others get to determine if their targets should be offended?

"Some forms of cultural (mis)appropriation are clearer than others, and in some cases it can clearly be inappropriate, especially when it is used insultingly, or reinforces prejudicial stereotypes. "

Blackface (the theatrical form that started in the 19th century) is easier to understand, as it comes across as mocking black people, especially from our modern point of view. Most people agree blackface is racist.

But white people wearing dreadlocks is in a different category from blackface, surely. People wear dreadlocks because they like the way it looks. No one is being mocked or insulted.

Dreadlocks have become popular in recent times because of Jamaican Rastafarianism. So I get the idea that white people have taken the idea from a black culture. What I don't understand is how this can be said to be a wrong thing to do.

n.b. I am aware that historically that dreads have been more widespread than Jamaica including ancient Europe, but the current fashion was surely inspired by reggae (Bob Marley especially).

"What is illogical?"

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. White people copy black people and black people copy white people. Everyone copies, with a few modifications along the way. And its a good thing, isn't it?

"What is illogical? Do people who mock others get to determine if their targets should be offended?"

Clearly, there are people such as peterlund who find your username offensive. You should change it to satisfy his sensibilities. But there's no reason for him to be offended by it? Well you don't get to determine that. See how untenable your argument is?

I can't speak to dreadlocks, but i can talk about abuse of power.

Culture appropriation is a problem when it is damaging. If an American like Japanese animation and cosplays as an anime character most Japanese people will not give a shit, their culture is being spread but not under threat of being wiped out and re-packaged as a small part of western imperialist culture, sold off without the original meaning and appropriate reverence.

However a Japanese-American does not live in the security of Japan, in a plave where Japanese culture is not under any threat, they may feel offended that their culture is being taken and played with in a disrespectful way. That is an example where the power dynamic is what makes an act more or less damaging. (Take the planned casting of a white woman in Hollywood's live-action Ghost in a Shell movie, of 'yellow-face' - this is seen as problematic by some, but most Japanese people living in Japan don't see their culture being eroded.)

If you take a very different power dynamic, like Native Americans, whose culture has been completely changed and massively damaged by Imperialist practices; then you would want to be much more sensitive when considering using it. The 'red socks' for example, may be inherently racist, but their use of an culture which is barely hanging on is far more damaging than the use of a japanese story in Hollywood.

So to dread locks. If you are black, and your hair is more naturally thicker and matts easily, then dreadlocks may make sense. But if you are less likely to get a job when wearing dreadlocks and live in a world where this aspect of black culture (ie the natural hair style) is under threat; then is seems obvious why white people wearing this style is offensive.

The fact is many black people feel the need to assimulate to survive - in this context that means straigthening their hair, and making it appear more 'white' ( like the cultural norm of how a white person wears their hair). And when your livelyhood depends on working, being forced to give things about your culture up for your own survival is hugely problematic.

It is in this context that white people wearing dreadlocks can be seen as insulting. Like a white person 'playing' with black culture (and despite the history of europeans wearing dreads or similar in the past, it is currently associated with black culture), a white person who will get that same job despite wearing dreads, while their black colleague fears getting fired if they were to do the same. Because the white person doesn't need to prove their white-ness.

Basically the question comes down to, 'is their any damage being done?', and here th message seems to be, 'you must adopt our culture, but we can play with yours as much as we like' - which IS inherently rascist and damaging.

Spyman context matters. Not all copying is innocuous or respectful, some well meaning copying comes across as patronizing. Other copying has no pretense of being well meaning it's just plain mockery, like sports teams with native American mascots. This isn't illogical.

Leon do you have any evidence that my name was created to mock Peterlund or that Peterlund is in any way a target of my name ? False equivalency seems to be a right-wing pastime.

When two cultures share influences, like Japanese animation taking a lot from early American animation, and modern western animation (like Samauri Jack, Avatar the last Airbender and similar) taking back from Anime, then you have an equal sharing.

When i can play with wearing your cultural expression, but you are forced to wear mine to assimulate, then that is not equal.

That is inherently racist. (And yes, Aveneu Q is right, 'everyones a little bit racist' come on sing it with me.) I'm a racist, Putin's a racist, Spyman's a racist, everyone's a little bit racist - so me telling you something is racist isn't an attack on you personally; but acknowledging that racism, and doing something about it is important.

Assimulate isn't a word.. is it? Assimilate?

Anyway, carry on.

@Steephie ,I apologise if you didn't understand my meaning. Your failure has been noted.

Cultural appropriation is when you decide to make an Italian pizza, eat tapas anywhere except in a Spanish restaurant, pull Venetian blinds, put a Turkish carpet in your living room, use chopsticks if you were brought up using a knife and fork, try to play bongos or steel drums is you are from a western culture of a violin or piano if you are from Africa or wear a cheongsam if you are not from China or do or use anything that your forbears didn't eat, use or wear AND somebody feels they have a right to be offended.

The intersection of exploitation, ignorance, bad execution, and grievance culture. Let Justice Potter Stewart define it, as he did obscenity.

There is no right to not be offended. As such your are entitled to be offensive, that does not equate to requiring you to he offensive.

Look at the westboro baptist church, the offend people by protesting military funerals. And everybody hates them, but they are allowed to do it. Just hecause you have a right to be offensive doesn't you should choose to be an asshole.

Look it is your choice whether to wear dreads, just as much as it was wealth white men's choice to own slaves 200 years ago. You can do it if you want to, that doesn't mean you should do it without thinking about the context you are doing it in.

Nobody is calling for you to be banned from wearing dreads, for big government intervention to stop you from expressing yourself in whatever way you like. But if spyman's black friends tell him somethin is inappropriate, and he wants them to still be friends, he should probably listen to what they are saying... That's not some deeply subversive piece of political theatre, or new 'PC bullshit gone too far' - it is common fucking sense.

You can choose to be a complete asshole all you want. Just don't expect me to choose to interact with you.

The fact is, if you've been socialised with other humans, even if you are mildly autistic, you inderstand that some social behaviours are more or less acceptable than others. You have learned from making mistakes and upsetting people that words like cunt or moist can be offensive. That words racial slurs can be highly offensive (so much so that i don't want to use them here as examples). And that violent or sexual behaviour is socially frowned upon - except in certain contexts; like violence in a boxing match or other full contact sport, or sexual behaviour in your bedroom. You inderstand these thigs without needing to be told, without the government needing laws against them (though there are laws against violence and sex in public) and you automatically get that some behaviour is more or less acceptable.

The fact that you don't get why wearing dreads is offensive isn't actualy that important; you don't need to know why masturbation on a public bus is not acceptable in order to know that it isn't. I've discussed the why above. But even if you don't understand it, you and specifically Spyman, know that it is offensive. And now you have a choice about how to act.

You can not wear dreads yourself and even tell others you see wearing dreads that it is offensive, or you can be an asshole and specifically go out and wear dreads to offend others. Up to you really. But if your intention is to signal that you hate black people and don't care about their opinions, then you may be more than just a little bit racist.

I am still not convinced that dreads are offensive. We're talking about hair here. Can a group claim moral ownership of a hairstyle? It seems absurd to be me.

Also why lump all black people together? Why do "they" own the hairstyle collectively?

Let's run with the premise that the current dates back to Jamaican reggae. If we say therefore that Jamaican's "own" the hairstyle of dreads, and then later African American adopt the hairstyle, aren't they "appropriating" Jamaican culture? Why is it okay for African Americans to appropriate a Jamaican hairstyle but it is not okay for European Americans to appropriate the very same hairstyle?

typo... Let's run with the premise that the current *style dates back to Jamaican reggae.

"Basically the question comes down to, 'is their any damage being done?', and here th message seems to be, 'you must adopt our culture, but we can play with yours as much as we like' - which IS inherently rascist and damaging."

No one is forcing anyone else to adopt any culture. Naturally, minorities will acculturate in the American melting pot, but that is of their own will. A white person who moves to a foreign country would likewise have to assimilate.

"It is in this context that white people wearing dreadlocks can be seen as insulting. Like a white person 'playing' with black culture (and despite the history of europeans wearing dreads or similar in the past, it is currently associated with black culture), a white person who will get that same job despite wearing dreads, while their black colleague fears getting fired if they were to do the same. Because the white person doesn't need to prove their white-ness."

Do you see all the blonde girls in Japanese anime? Yet no one accuses them of cultural appropriation even though it could be just as easily be construed as "playing" with white attributes.

"Leon do you have any evidence that my name was created to mock Peterlund or that Peterlund is in any way a target of my name ? False equivalency seems to be a right-wing pastime."

Nothing false about the equivalency. You heavily implied that white people with dreads must be mocking black people, which is clearly untrue. Most white people who wear dreads are, in fact, liberals trying to taste the black culture.

"When i can play with wearing your cultural expression, but you are forced to wear mine to assimulate, then that is not equal. "

Again, here, no one is forced to assimilate. If a Japanese person doesn't like American culture, he or she can stay in Japan. An American who goes to Japan would likewise have to assimilate to Japanese culture. This is common sense, people.

"There is no right to not be offended. As such your are entitled to be offensive, that does not equate to requiring you to he offensive."

+1. Someone, somewhere is going to find offense in something you say or do. It is impossible to please everyone, and what is important is to live by one's own conscience and act based on one's own life experience and moral compass.

"I am still not convinced that dreads are offensive."

They aren't. Somehow, European, Chinese, and all the other cultures can be appropriated without a peep from anyone, yet anyone who wants to do anything that has a hint of Africa, it's offensive.

Romans stealing our gods and giving them stupid names and different personalities. Fucking Romans.

I can't get behind most claims of cultural appropriation. I think where it can have some legs is when people make money off blatantly ripping off other people's cultures or if there is a negative connotation. Cultural exchange has occurred across the span of human history.

@"Again, here, no one is forced to assimilate. If a Japanese person doesn't like American culture, he or she can stay in Japan. An American who goes to Japan would likewise have to assimilate to Japanese culture. This is common sense, people."

Again, i don't think there is that much problematic with Japanese - American cultural interactions.

But can you honestly say that a white american, and a native american wearing traditional dress/hair styles/culturally appropriate for them whatever, would be treated equally?

Or do you think how someone dresses will have an impact on how much racism they will experience in day-to-day life?

Well regardless of what you 'think', they know what they feel, and if you care to read about it, there are countless discussions of people feeling the need to fit in - and this is a survival thing, if you can't get a job, if you feel everyone is hostile to you as you go about your business, if you are attacking in public spaces. Then yes, you will feel forced to conform.

I'm not speaking from my own experience, so you should really go and search out some of the discussion by people who are affected if you want a more in depth discussion/understanding. (though it is also not their job to educate you, so unless you're planning to pay someone to do that, i suggest you thread lightly...)

If you want to experience some discrimination, you can simply go out wearing a dress, or some other gender non-conforming clothing and see what a difference it makes to how people address you. Gender queer expression is a similar mess, and how people treat you will depend on them. But basically being white, cis-gendered, male, wealthy, educated and able-bodied, you will have the easiest fucking time possible. You may not be able to imagine what it is like to not be these things.

In your privilege you may even feel free to transgress some of these social norms, 'goth' culture is one where mostly white people reject normative expectations. They feel fairly safe doing so in a way which most black americans would not. Because, when you have already experienced discrimination based on things you can't choose, bringing extra discrimination on yourself seems unwise.

"They aren't. Somehow, European, Chinese, and all the other cultures can be appropriated without a peep from anyone, yet anyone who wants to do anything that has a hint of Africa, it's offensive."

As i pointed out, and maybe you missed it. There is a difference between taking a culture which is strong and copying it, and one which is weak.

Taking from a culture which is under threat does more damage.

And if that culture is one which is under threat because your people were forcibly moved from their homes, killed or enslaved, and deprived of their culture (for example african-american or native american culture) then you're talking about a completely different thing.

If you went to Kenya and started imitating the local customs that would not threaten their culture. Same with taking Japanese culture and making money from it in America... (as i did say above, the Japanese-American who is trying to hang onto their culture may feel differently to the Japanese person living in Japan, but there is a Japan where this culture is coming from so even then it is not as damaging)

@"If a Japanese person doesn't like American culture, he or she can stay in Japan. An American who goes to Japan would likewise have to assimilate to Japanese culture. This is common sense, people."

Where should the American native go, when their land has been taken and people murdered, when their ancestral gods have had their graves desecrated... Can you see why there is more of a problem with your line of reasoning depending on which culture you are borrowing from?

Yes, indeed the Japanese person has a culture to return to. They actually have a choice. The same is not true of every culture.

"There is a difference between taking a culture which is strong and copying it, and one which is weak."

With respect to dreadlocks, how does it hurt black culture?

Also could it not be said that you are being patronizing to black people by characterizing them as having a weak culture? Especially African American culture... which is surely very strong.

Another thing that comes to mind is that dreads for African Americans and European Americans alike are just an arbitrary fashion choice. Dreads may be popularly associated with black people, but they are also popularly associated with hippies and alternative rockers. But the fact as fashion choice is often associated with a particular groups does not necessarily mean that group "owns" the fashion.

typo.. But the fact that a fashion choice is often associated with...

What I am getting at is that most black people do not have dreads. It is not something that is central to black culture (in most countries at least).

Did you seriously compare owning slaves to having dreads?