At €3 per citizen, this project looks like it shouldn't take too long...

But what does this do to fix the systemic problems in Greece? ;)

It gives Syriza some room to actually get on with them

When did this start?

Just trying to figure out how much chance of success this has..

It'd be pretty cool though!

Can I get a bottle of wine first and then hold a referendum on whether I'm going to pay later?

It's been going for less than 24 hours.

No fairfax, you will be held responcible for your financial decisions, they way the bankers in Europe and the US were not.

*the way, even.

At the average of 15 dollars a person they need roughly 106 million people to donate for this to be viable, not sure that will work in time.

Obviously we're waiting for someone to buy a bunch of super-rich kind-hearted persons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkHDSn54Zs

^Relevant :)

I'm tired of hearing that schtick, orathaic. You had two options during the crisis. 1) Bail out the banks. 2) Watch the whole global economic system collapse. I've gotten to hear a LOT of inside stories over the past few weeks, and ya'll have no idea how serious it was.

Maybe the problem, then, is the system itself which necessitates that kind of thing, goldfinger. Sure, bail out the banks in the short run. In the long run? Abolish the banks.

I for one say Solidarity with the Greeks. They are doing the right thing, and exposing the monetary system they are in as ridiculous. Either the rich men of Brussels will bail them out, or they won't, but Greece is showing the world who has the moral high ground here. The creditors don't need the money back. The Greeks do. Yet this issue of whether they default is set to cause the Union to disintegrate.

You reap what you sow.

This is what happens when you lend something to someone, when you should have just given it to them to begin with.

If we bail out institutions whenever they're in trouble, we might as well get rid of the institutions entirely and 'bail out' people who would normally get a loan etc. It's just bailing out the people rather than the banks.

Just a crazy thought.

Yes goldfinget, the decision was made to bailout the banks - because a financial collapse would be a political failure, or kaybe fear of a massive economic collapse which would cause great suffering to citizens, depending on how cynical you want to be.

The point is, circumstances determine whether we should honour our debts, or save our bankers. It is not some absolute moral obligation, thus it is not necessarily evil to default.

Iceland is under going the fastest recovery in Europe after not bailing out their banks.

Greek citizens have been suffering under austerity policies, and will continute to do so unless their state - which is still sovereign - defaults. We should really wait until they suffer massive inflation and then donate, as our Euros will go much further towards allievating suffering if greece is allowe to exit the euro.

If the option of 'not bailing out the banks' would have caused potential suffering, then austerity has caused actual suffering.

I am not saying one is better than the other, merely than neither is morally wrong. We made a decision to bail out the banks. Greece has every right to now default on it's obligations to international creditors. Unless they are no longer a sovereign state, whih would be rather a blow to sovereignty of states.. I'm not sure if other states really want to see that.

Theoretically, could they sell an island to fix some things?

If you abolish the banks, then you abolish the market makers. If you abolish market makers, you introduce extreme volatility into debt markets. In which case the commercial paper market dries up. In which case every large fortune 500 company there is can't pay its employees.

And the fact that Thucy thinks the Greeks don't deserve this is laughable. They cooked the books to get into the Eurozone, borrowed extensively on the low interest rates, yet built nothing from it besides a lavish Olympics that they could in no way afford. All the borrowed money was swindled away in bribes and pensions, etc etc. And they didn't raise taxes either, because the Greeks are probably one of the most tax-averse nations in Europe.

They're reaping what they sowed

And who lent the money? What responsibility is there for the bankers who made bad investments in greece? It takes two to build up unplayable debts (and to tango)

"They're reaping what they sowed"

That sounds like you have no care for human suffering. There are many cases where it is not clear what action we should take - civil war in South Sudan? Instability in the former state of Libya, Palestine, Iraq, the self-proclaimed Islamic State? But in Greece, we need to pour money on the fire and it will go out. Burned to a crisp for sure, but gone.

If saving the banks was the obvious thing to do for economic reasons - and i will only admit that saving the economy is a moral choice because it reduces human suffering - then solidarity with Greece is equally obvious.

You can always nationalise the retail banking sector whilst allowing the commercial half of the bank to fold, goldie.

------@goldfinger
"And the fact that Thucy thinks the Greeks don't deserve this is laughable. They cooked the books to get into the Eurozone, borrowed extensively on the low interest rates, yet built nothing from it besides a lavish Olympics that they could in no way afford. All the borrowed money was swindled away in bribes and pensions, etc etc. And they didn't raise taxes either, because the Greeks are probably one of the most tax-averse nations in Europe.

They're reaping what they sowed"
---------------------------------------------

Good. Very good. Compact.

I believe in Britain, the government guarantees deposites of up to £76k and nothing beyond that.

So let the banks all fail, but nationalise the remains so that people can still be paid. Merge this into one national bank.

After all, Central Banks lend to private banks, who lend to the people. Why not just cut the middle man out? Sure, private banks provide benefits for the economy. So did asbestos companies. But then we realised asbestos was toxic. Banks are toxic, too. Get rid of private banks; and have the 'national' bank do all the lending.

Now, this could still fail, but at least then, the people at the top would pay the democratic price and be voted out if the banks fucked up again. Instead of the golden handshakes that the top bankers all got, with their huge payoffs and the zero price any of them paid.

You can't fairly compare banks to asbestos companies, the banks that became to big to fail were a vital component underlying the rest of the economy - moving to bitcoins (or a similar algorithm) would have been a perfectly valid shift; but there are reasons that did not happen. So we needed something to fill the gap to facilitate trade.

Something had to be done, for national security.

So, actually, nationalisation makes a measure of sense. In the same way we have a nationalised Army, we don't leave the security of the state open to the forces of the market and personal ambition.

Nationalisation being one option open to the Greeks tomorrow...

orathaic - that was more a counter to Thucy than my true sentiment. Personally, Europe fucked up with Greece. Right now most of Greece's debt is held by the Eurozone countries. As such, they can (and should) be lenient as to when Greece should make its payments. I do understand why they're hesitant to lend more money to Greece though. As for the current IMF payment - well, the IMF has always been like this, and I believe Europe called them to the table, so...

Personally, austerity was a bad idea.I understand Greece's debt/GDP was well over 100%, but Greece is so small of an economy that it shouldn't matter. For a larger country like Spain, yes austerity is a must because if they go there's no one there to bail them out.

As for it takes two to tango - Greece lied about its budget with the help of Goldman. Investors, believing the Eurozone would save them, believed the A1 rating given to it by rating agencies (easily investor-grade, as recently as Jan 2007) and lent away. And when crisis did strike, the Eurozone did assume the majority of the debt from private investors. About half the debt that's due this year (from Treasuries issued last year) would normally be able to be rolled over and refinanced. So, its not entirely the markets fault. They just believed the ratings agencies, who were lied to by Greece with the help of Goldman Sach - who was hired by Greece to help them lie.

This debate is funny.

[NB: No, I don't actually believe that private banks should be eradicated. But there are ways it could be done].

HR - I'd do the opposite on that nationalization.

As for the central banks - the Greek central bank is given money by the ECB through lending lifelines. Each country in the eurozone has a quota, of sorts. The Greek central bank has currently maxed out that quota (due to the billions in outflows of depositors over the previous weeks) and the ECB won't raise the bar. So that's not exactly an option. Greece cannot print euros.