Sheila Jeffreys has no right to tell other people what to do with their bodies, and Judith Butler is right to oppose her view. She does so very articulately if you ask me.

In terms of your first specific question, I would argue that the answer is "yes" - that is, the gender of human beings is a social construction. If it were not, why would we have a word for it? If gender and biological sex were 100% the same thing, you'd just say "sex". The fact that we don't do that, in many cases, demonstrates not only that gender is seperate from sex, but that it is, at least to some degree, the product of social construction.

@Jamie - i suspect you are agreeing with me, but i'm not sure i see things so clearly.

Gender identity appears to be biological / developmental; gender expression is clearly socially constructed. And the two are related but difference.

Just as biological sex and sexual expression. Although an aspect of sexual expression is sexual attraction - which has a biological / developmental component.

You can be hetro-sexual / homo-sexual and celibate ( most catholic priests )
You can be a-sexual and married in a happy sexually active relationship.
And you can be bi-sexual and in a 'straight' or 'gay' relationship.

Expression and identity are seperate things, and should not be confused.

As for gender theory 101, i suspect given past conversations on these forums we will need a lot of work to escape any pitfalls, categorisation errors, and cognitive illusions which people have built for themselves.

I'd be interested if you'd care to expand on your understanding of "gender expression", and how it differs from gender identity, orthaic

Down with gender, up with sex.

Ora, are you calling most Catholic priests homosexual?

Gender makes 0 sense to me, mostly because Ive seen so many definitions. This completely defeats the purpose of words if people cannot adequately communicate with this word and be on the same page.

This is why I am confused:

Is it an identity? Do you just say you're male and you're male? Then what is the deference between a male and female? How do you 'feel' male or female? What does it mean to be male or female with this definition? Nothing is learned about a person if they tell you that they are male/female.

Another definition I've gotten is that it is a matter of masculinity and femininity. So are feminine guys the female gender? How do you measure femininity? I thought gender roles were a thing of the past.

Also, a side question: what is gender fluidity? This makes the least sense to me because how can you just be male sometimes and female some other times? What does it mean to be male or female? I guess if this question is answered, I can figure out the rest but so far, it seems like there is no purpose in being male or female with any of these definitions.

theses are legitimate questions btw. I'm honestly cconfused and would like to understand.

@King - he specifically and clearly stated "Hetero or Homo but celibate".

However, Sexuality and Gender are different things, although you can make a case that you can't define someone's sexuality until you establish their gender. For example, a man who identifies as a woman but is sexually attracted to women - is that a heterosexual man or a homosexual woman? A transgendered queerly sexed individual? A generqueer straight male? Good luck.

Berlin - Sex (I'm A)

https://vimeo.com/71629494

Thus why sex is much easier.

@Yoyo ... it is confusing. It really is. A lot of people simply use that as a reason to dismiss it, though. I'm glad you aren't doing that.

"Is it an identity?"

For some, it's an identifying factor. For others, it isn't. Same goes for ethnicity, religion, nationality, etc. It's like that. Often times, it has an individual meaning for a person. Ask a person what it means to them and that will be your answer.

"Do you just say you're male and you're male?"

Some argue this. I disagree, but I also respect a more liberally-minded view on the matter. I would say that you're assigned a gender (male or female) at birth and some elect to identify as another gender. I've never done it so I can't say I understand that thought process, but again, I'm willing to respect it.

"Then what is the deference between a male and female?"

Many say it's arbitrary and little more than a word in terms of gender. In terms of sex, it has meaning - genitalia, hormones, etc. Sex is the body's physical nature, gender is the mindset.

"How do you 'feel' male or female?"

I can't answer that, but my sister is going through a gender transition, and since she began doing this, she has undoubtedly become more open and seems to be more of her own person. I imagine she'll tell us at some point that she would rather not be referred to as "she," and again, I'll never understand that, but it's critical to respect that when that time comes.

"So are feminine guys the female gender?"

Feminist and egalitarian movements have attempted to dissuade feminine behavior from being attributed to the female gender (and vice versa, along with masculine behavior and male gender). I wouldn't say that a male wearing a skirt is female simply because he wears a skirt - would you?

"How do you measure femininity?"

Quantifying something as delicate as gender is impossible. You've simply gotta ask.

"I thought gender roles were a thing of the past."

They aren't, but they're different than they have been ever before.

"[W]hat is gender fluidity?"

I don't understand gender fluidity or how someone can effectively flip-flop between traditional genders. When I encounter someone who tells me they are gender fluid, I ask them about it. I've never met someone who won't answer questions.

"What does it mean to be male or female?"

Again, that's completely individual. There are the more traditional definitions of male, which you and I typically conform to, and female. That's not a crime by any means - don't let anyone tell you it is. Just respect those who define these terms differently and live by their own definitions. They aren't doing anything wrong. The only thing you can do is ask questions like you have here and eventually this kind of thing will become an acceptable part of our society.

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

@KC, nope, i'm calling most Catholic priests celibate - not all of them of course, some have sex with their house keepers (in at least one case in ireland)

@Jamie - gender identity being how you identify; male and female being the most common, genderqueer, agender and gender fluid being the various diverse ways people self-identify.

Gender expression is how you express that identity. So a woman in an Islamic country might wear a hijab and no makeup, while a woman in California might wear makeup and a bikini top, or a woman in London might wear high heels and whatever else - obviously this varies by culture, and individual person.

The comparison is with Catholic Priests who (whether hetrosexual or otherwise) do not express their sexuality because they are sworn to celibacy. Being celibate doesn't change your sexual orientation. It does however change your sexual expression (to not expressing it)

A third gender 'thing' is gender roles - these are stereotypical gender expressions within a given culture; so if girls are expected to have long hair, or learn to cook, and be a good house wife, then these are expectations setup by society to control? I don't know... But gender roles clearly exist.

It may make you uncomfortable if someone you think of as female comes up to you and breaks the stereotype you expect her to fill, perhaps aggressively demanding something. Or likewise if a man asks you for a shoulder to cry on.

Reverse those two situaoons and you are likely much more comfortable with them ( though here i am making huge assumptions about your culture, and i have't even asked where you are from)

What does it mean to be a man?

Well have you ever woken up and asked yourself are you a woman (i'm assuming you are male and not trans) How do you know you're not a man? Without refering to your body? Could you be a woman trapped in a man's body?? How do you know?

I am cisgendered (ie not transgendered) and male, and i can't imagine not thinking of myself as male, i am also fortunate to have been assigned male at birth (that 'its a boy!' moment) Had my penis been smaller and not fully detached, with the urethra not where it is, the doctors might have been confused... Many Intersex people exist, and are usually assigned either male or female (as their sex, not their gender) and forever thought of as a boy or girl by their parents. But that assignment is a best guess based only on external genitalia.

Not on hormonal balance ( which can vary on a spectrum between 'typical' male and 'typical' female ) not on internal genitalia or gonads ( some women have internal testicles instead of ovaries, are XY genetically, but don't respond to testosterone so develop as 'normal' women ) not on chromosones (usually XX for women and XY for men, but we also have XXX, or XXY, and a few XXYY people... ) and definitely not on their self-identified gender ( which anecdotally expresses itself by the age of four, if not earlier, but some people aren't sure as adults )

What is genderfluid? Maybe it is a resuly of hormonal fluctuations, maybe it is a genetic cause, i don't know, but some people say they feel more male obe day or hour and more female the next. Not at all something i've experienced, infact i don't know what it would feel like to feel female...


Note: femme and butch are terms used for people (often women) who express themselves in a stereotypical femine/masculine way. Similar terms exist for men, though they escape me.

This, i think, has more to do with expression than identity.
A girl can be a tomboy growing up, and not be transgender. She'd be a masculine girl. Expressing interest in typical masculine activities while self-identifying as a girl (but perhaps thinking girl-ish things like dolls and houses are stupid)

Of course she might also be a he, that is a trans boy, who doesn't have the vocab to really understand what being trans is.

@jbAlcorn, yes, gender and sexuality are different, i didn't mean to conflate the two.

I was just trying to highlight the similarities in identity vs expression.

You can be straight but choose not to have sex. You don't magically become asexual because you've sworn a vow of celibacy.

Or magically become gay if you suck on a few too many cocks...

Likewise, dressing up as a woman doesn't magically make you transgender. (Again with the assumption that you are all cismales...)

"A generqueer straight male? "

I think, straight is hetrosexual, which means attracted to the opposite sex or gender.

So either attracted to the opposite or genderqueer, which i suppose would be anything falling within the gender binary (ie male or female) OR the opposite of male, which (according to the gender binary) would be female.

See? Not too hard.

But you said genderqueer male? I think you meant genderqueer (as opposed to trans/cis gender male/female) with a penis. Genderqueer is either A) kinda like intersex, somewhere in-between, maybe they don't feel entirely male or female, or B) used as an umbrella term to describe anyone who doesn't feel that the male/female binary accurately reflects their gender....

I've never heard of genderqueer being used interchangeably with intersex, but maybe it does. I typically use it as a blanket. I don't feel like every variation of something else needs a term of its own.

No, not interchangably.

What intersex is to sex; genderqueer is to gender.

I don't think sex and gender are the same thing.

But yes the blanket terms as you put it, can be a useful umbrella.

Likewise Queer has been used as an umbrella terms to all non-straight sexualities.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

Of course it is constructed, how arrogant is it to say that with so many differing views of gender in cultures around the world (and western culture throughout time) that westerners in the late 19th early twentieth centuries had it right.

It's sort of like how Thucydides thinks there is a dichotomy between good and evil that only he can determine. Arrogant

The fact you are trying to mix to feminism, *AUTHORITARIANISM, and gender tells me how utterly fucked up and pointless this "conversation" will be.

And if you can't grasp the protest of the false mix of topics, then you are truly hopeless.

Please, explain it to us, O mighty goat herder.

is it mixing when power is central to all three?

Jamie....you flaming hypocrite...I thought you had me muted...oh....wait....you mean, yet again, you are just a liar? No further response from you is required, you disingenuous twat. I don't have conversation with verified liars.

I mean, there's only 400 years worth of literature on feminism. It's obviously illegitimate.

"is it mixing when power is central to all three?"

What a childish question. The assumption, I presume, is that because (your assertion) there is "power" in all three, they therefore must be discussed as if they are all linked.

Well....then discussing these woefully inadequate three topics while excluding other topics for which there is "power" is a childish assumption...

Why not talk about wealth? Race? Relifgion? **BEAUTY**? Height? Weight? Smell of breath? Sense of fashion? etc etc etc....

Ridiculous psuedo-intellectual bullshit, as usual.

Bo- nobody ever said "feminism" was legitimate. YOu, as usual, miss the point, because you are "too intelligent" to get it...

um, if power is central to Gender, Authoritarianism, and Feminism, does it not make the three worthy of discussion together, quite straight forward, the three are hardly as different as you claim.

Considering you said that feminism is authoritarianism, which is an entirely different movement, you delegitimized feminism.

who said that?

krellin: "I don't have conversation with verified liars."

Says one of the biggest liars of all.