They really are. While it is written in the constitution that we do have the right to freedom of religion, I do not believe it should affect the way you do business. And besides, what idiot would turn down paying customers simply because they don't agree with that customers way of life?

I am sure I can think of examples that you would do the same, Sandman. Anyway, for the sake of discussion, how exactly are these laws constitutionally unsound?

I don't know if the Indiana law specifically covers this case or not, but the inherent problem with these type of laws is simple. Lets say that we are in a power outage. You have 1 store in your neighborhood that has water left, and there isn't running water. The store owner refuses you because you are gay. This could be putting your life in danger. Odd situation yes, but feasible.

You go to a Dentist and in his pre screening he finds you have all the symptoms of a heart attack and calls ems. Yes dentists and hygienists are trained to look for this type of thing. Except you're Muslim so the Christian dentist denied you, and you didn't have the appointment that day so you died because ems got to you too late.

Get creative, but the point is, laws like this can put people in danger simply to allow other people to be bigots.

so what are concrete example of something good this law would help ensure? or something bad this law would help prevent? is there anything that supporters of this law are legitimately afraid of, if anything? "legitimately" being the key word.

This is one that is related.

A Bakery refused to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding because her christian beliefs did not agree with homosexual relationships. She refused due to the request to place two men as the wedding topper. Now, an easy compromise for this situation would have been that the Baker bake the cake, but request that the couple get the cake topper from another source.

/\ Real life situation

Would a clause that prevented this sort of discrimination in case of serious harm, (ie death or injury) be acceptable? I don't think this is what it is aimed at. But of course, it could fall under such categories.

Didnt the Nazis of Germany do this same law?

no the Nazis did not have a law proclaiming religious freedom...

Sandman, that is a ridiculous compromise. She felt morally compelled to have no part in what she considered a morally offensive ceremony. Certainly people can appreciate this.

Oh look, the Nazi's imposed Germany's first national speed limit! Speed limits must be evil!

False comparison.

Words can be arranged to whatever people like. A freedom law could very well be a restriction law. They made businesses stop selling to the Jews or whoever they found not worthy due to their beliefs. By my understanding, isnt this what the Religious Freedom law does? At least this time people can choose to not sell to people they dont like. Wonder how long that will last...

The law says that governmental infringement on religious liberty needs to meet the legal standard of strict scrutiny, just like any governmental act that makes distinctions based on racial grounds.

I don't see why this is so controversial. (Well I do, but that's because people in this country want to subordinate the free exercise of religion below the ability to be free from hurt feelings.)

Raise your hand if you would bake a cake for a KKK celebration, fully depicted with black people being lynched, shot, burned, what have you.

If you open your business to the public, you open it TO THE PUBLIC. Period. You may not discriminate against any customers. Legally, the only exception is if the (potential) customer is a threat to your business (e.g. drunken sot gets bounced out of a pub, angry ranting customer is making others uneasy, etc).

The right way to handle this is to make your business into a *private club.* Note the distinction from a *privately-owned* business.

If you are a club, you provide a special service to members. Think Costco. Augusta National Golf Club and the Boy Scouts of America are similar.

Anyway, the point is that if you have membership, you can restrict your services to members. Of course, you have to define how people become members and then stick to that policy. If you're not a club, you can't arbitrarily reject people, but if you are a club, the reject whoever you want. Problem solved!

Except, you know, how this new law actually allows that.

Along with the other 19 states who already have something similar. And the 15 considering adding something similar.

Although I do like the club idea.

*whomever

This new law may allow it, but there is well established legal precedent that resulted from the Civil Rights Movement and based on the 14th Amendment that expressly forbids people from discriminating. These laws were unconstitutional from the moment they were passed. That's how cynical the Republican politicians who promoted them really are. Fuck those guys.

And yet, it hasn't been struck down in any of the other states, nor at the federal level.

"Raise your hand if you would bake a cake for a KKK celebration, fully depicted with black people being lynched, shot, burned, what have you."

I would not, but I would do it because I will not condone other people infringing on others rights, which is what the KKK does. And that has nothing to do with my religion.

Do you think that lady should be able to turn away a fat couple because they are sinful with gluttony?

"And yet, it hasn't been struck down in any of the other states, nor at the federal level."

Neither had slavery until people started a movement against it. That is not an argument.

JMO,

3 . First let's change the situation you spoke of with the water and make it you have water at your house. The person who raped your daughter 10 years earlier needs water. You should be forced to give it to him right?

Point 2, in the situation with water, a true christian would happily help another person who was dying of thirst.

Point 3, what about the muslim faith? If a muslim's religious beliefs forbid pork and his kids are starving, should he be forced to feed them pork chops if that is all that is available?

They haven't been struck down because the Supreme Court doesn't just go around looking for laws to find unconstitutional. They have twice (at minimum) rejected petitions from small business owners who have declined services to gay patrons. The Religious Right is putting these ridiculous laws in play so there will be a legal showdown in the future once there is a conflict in the circuit that needs resolution. It will happen. It just takes time.

Frigging reactionaries are just clogging the system with crap that know won't stand muster.

KingCyrus, your comparison to the KKK thing and a Gay wedding are two completely different topics. One is against the law, and the other was recently ruled in favor by the Supreme Court.

Now, I don't understand why you don't think a compromise is possible. If she didn't want to bake it, she could have made referrals to other bakeries that would have.

Yes, I am a Christian. And honestly, what I would have done in that situation is bake the cake. As a Christian, I do realize that there are bible verses that state that if a man lies with another man, that they should both die. But there are also bible verses that say to love your neighbor, and to treat him as you would wish to be treated. I personally try to live by the second one.

@AFatCat, your change is flawed. The gay individual in my situation did nothing to harm the owner of that store. You are trying to illogically twist my description to take the actual point off track.

A true Christian would, but lets be honest, most people aren't 100% true to their religion. So I cannot accept the theory you're proposing that a random person is likely to be 100% true to their religion.

Yes, and this is legally proven. A great example are people in jail for allowing their kids to die by refusing them medical help and relying on prayers and faith healers. Religion by law, cannot be used as an excuse to allow someone to die.

I really am waiting for an argument that boils down to anything other then "a book tells me I can be a fucktard to people because they don't think the same way I do".

"Yes, I am a Christian. And honestly, what I would have done in that situation is bake the cake. As a Christian, I do realize that there are bible verses that state that if a man lies with another man, that they should both die. But there are also bible verses that say to love your neighbor, and to treat him as you would wish to be treated. I personally try to live by the second one."

+1 the hell out of that.

@jmo, Thank You