Errrr---debt to GDP

Octavious, you are amazing! This country is in a mess. Has been for years. A mess achieved by fifty years of continuous right wing rule - and still your narrative is of a 'crazed left wing lunatic'. Never let the facts get in the way of prejudice, eh?

Fifty years of continuous right wing rule? I guess that all depends on where you stick your centre marker, but most commentators would say that since the end of military rule it's been pretty much 50/50 between left and right.

Some commentators say that this 'left-wing' party - now elected wity a majority - is actually right-wing, in everything but a sovereign debt default. (which actually makes you somewhat in favour of independent sovereignty... Not really clear if that is a left/right issue...)

Are they elected with a majority? I thought that was still in the balance.

I'm just basing hat on second hand information from my brother via twitter... But maybe? I guess it could still be undecided, but someone thinks they know...

Also, where is our token greek forum member when we need him!

Octavious: It keeps on getting worse every year. As ssorenn alluded to, things aren't quite dandy on the macroeconomic level. Surely a change of course might be a good thing?

orathaic: Why on Earth would you say that SYRIZA is right-wing? You sure you're not confusing it with one of the minor Greek parties?

Syriza is communist.

@JECE

I think of it as being similar to a nightmare train journey. A storm is raging outside, your train has a faulty engine which means it can only just go half speed, and you've been stuck at a station in the middle of nowhere for the last hour because a tree fell on the line. The tree has almost been cleared and you're about to set off again when someone shouts "to hell with trains, lets hitchhike!"

Sure, go ahead and keep using analogies instead of facts, Octavious.

@ Jeff

What's wrong with the analogy? I'm one of the few people who has been factually accurate on this thread. Orathaic has said the winning party had a majority and was right wing, which are both false. Thomas said Greece has been right wing for 50 years, which is ridiculously false. You have said Syriza is Communist, which is false (commies in Greece are easy to spot as they are in the Communist party and tend not to like Syriza).

I have posted fact and opinion, you have posted bollocks, so sod off.

@Octavious
"I have posted fact and opinion, you have posted bollocks, so sod off."
Nice to see you have abandoned all pretence of polite, reasoned debate.
You assert that "most commentators would say that since the end of military rule it's been pretty much 50/50 between left and right".
Provide, please, say, half a dozen informed commentators (with chapter and verse) who have offered such an analysis, or is this yet another example of your presenting tendentious nonsense as though it were fact?

@ Thomas

Do you consider the PanHellenic Socialist Movement to be left wing? If you do it is really not beyond the wit of a 5 year old to research that they have been in power in Greece really quite a lot. If you do not consider them left wing then your view on politics is simply so far removed from mine it is utterly pointless speaking to you.

Actually, Octavious' analogy isn't too off. If you look at their deficit levels as a percentage of GDP, they've returned to normal levels. Now they're just starting on the long road of slowly paying off all that debt - and its a road the entire Eurozone is taking, not just Greece.

Octaviois' analogy does depend on you point of view; if the train is running into a volcanoe, then you proably do want to get off.... But then my analogy doesn't work perfectly either..

You could also suggest that hitchhiking is less reliable but can be more fun than taking the train because you get to meet so many new people...

Or more importantly, you could look at why a tree fell in the first place; was it because of all the trains driving past, with their razor sharp tree cutting blades? Are we in for another horrible accident if we continue on the train??

The fans of austerity were given free rein because it was supposed to boost GDP and reduce the debt. Despite following the prescriptions, Greece finds that neither has happened. Thus, austerity economics is proven to be wrong headed. Take it out behind the barn and shoot it. Fortunately, enough Greeks recognize taht the Austrian school is a complete failure that they elect some Keynesians. Bout time.

First off, the forecasters were stupid to predict a boost in GDP from that. Perhaps they were expecting greater growth from the rest of the Euro area to offset it (forecasts have been well above reality for much of the last five years). But the reduction in debt *is* working. Their budget is balanced now. And for two years they've been running a surplus if you remove the interest payments. Fiscally, they are bad, but improving shape. Keynesian economics could wreck that. Look at Japan. Despite all the government stimulus and spending, they haven't broken out. And now they're at around 240% debt to GDP

Government debt is meaningless.

How?

I should clarify, government debt is meaningless in any state with a state-controlled fiat currency. In the case of Greece, it is a real issue whilst it belongs in the Euro.

Government debt only exists because there is some account in the central bank that isn't allowed to go negative. Remove this pretty arbitrary limit, and there's no problem with debt.

I believe that you're mixing up the roles of the bank of england and the exchequer. The central bank has no fiscal limitations.

Technically, if you control your own currency, there is nothing to stop you borrowing the total amount of overseas debt from yourself, and paying off all your overseas debt simply via printing money. This is liable to cause hyperinflation if people find out that you're printing off all that money though.

If you could do it in secret, though...

Really? Just hope no one is going to wonder where a bankrupt country suddenly got €424,855,012,217 from?

Anyway, if people start pulling those kinds of tricks with money, we'll be back to bartering goods before you know it.

the US printed 4 trillion and put it on its own balance sheet, and cant get inflation to rise, its all about the money supply

Although ssorenn, the US is in a unique position in that it is the reserve currency of the world and enjoys the privilege of being able to print more money than would be acceptable for any other state on the planet.

Rather, I meant to write that the US Dollar is in a unique position and that the USA can print more money.

i do not argue that the U.S. situation is not unique. Just merely pointing out fact. Also as QE(asset purchases) ended up devaluing the dollar which allowed for asset prices to rise, asset prices are now falling (ie:commodities) because as the rest of the world now is involved with some sort of QE the dollar strengthens to multi year highs.

Well Steephie, if you pay all of it off at the same time, then they can't really do that wondering. And given the money never actually goes into circulation that way, it's feasible that it won't cause hyperinflation.

Of course, it would pull the legs out of the Global financial system in general, but given most of the money being traded there doesn't exist in the first place, a reality check might be a good thing in the long run.