here here +1 entire thread

Ok Krellin but also I require this to be a fair thread, so hats off to the young Germans who defended Normandy under orders and their families as well.

-1 to SY

It was a hard fought battle with many losses on both sides. Much of European WWII was *German* (not Nazi) and Italian soldiers fighting allied troops. Winners right the history books, but the Germans fought just as bravely that day. So for once, I agree with SYnapse. My rememberances go out to those who lost family in that tragic conflict and those who fought in it no matter which side, and to those who have fought for and continue to fight for freedom around the world (Germans are our friends now so they are in that list too).

I hate Nazis, but the average German soldier was just a German soldier no different than our own boys at Omaha beach.

Oh and it's National Doughnut Day! Originally created to recognize the volunteers who served donuts to arriving soldiers in WWI, it's now just about the donuts. But an interesting bit of trivia none the less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Doughnut_Day

Winners *write* the history books...

SYnapse - I agree to that...a soldier doing his duty is a soldier doing his duty (unless it is so obviously wrong as to be inexcusable...gassing children, for example...) I've got a lot of respect for what German soldiers accomplished....would ahve accomplished had not their leadership been so fucked. (Should have won the west before they went east)

It's two-sided for me. I respect all the soldiers for putting their lives on the line for ideologies. I have disdain for them for the same reason...

^Sorry, SYnapse, it's one-sided for me, in favor of the Allies...

I can understand why young men might've fought for the Axis even if they didn't agree with the ideology and were just forced along...

Doesn't mean I need to respect that.

Good people can be made to do bad things...doesn't mean I have to respect them for having done so.

Also, for a D-Day...erm, not-quite-so-fun fact (what's fun about that day?)--

James Doohan, Scotty from "Star Trek," fought for Canada on D-Day and had part of the middle finger on one of his hands shot off...he does a good job hiding it, but you can see in some of the shots on the show that he's missing part of a finger.

But if we're talking actions, shooting people on a beach is bad whatever you do it for.

Yeah, next time we should hug the nazi's. That'll teach them.

This is a fourth thread in which you have turned into an asshole. Perhaps your reading comprehension of English is not so good after all. Not all Germans were Nazis and most German soldiers were just German soldiers. If they were good Nazi soldiers, they would have been in the SS and shit, not fighting on the beaches of Normandie.

"But if we're talking actions, shooting people on a beach is bad whatever you do it for."

Oh, I don't know...shooting Nazis to liberate France...

Anyone want to raise their hands and say they're not OK with that?

"Not all Germans were Nazis and most German soldiers were just German soldiers."

I get that, Draug...hence my "good people can be made to do bad things" caveat...before accusing someone else of not having good reading comprehension, perhaps deign to read the whole of someone's comment first?

Fighting for Germany in WWII was bad. Period.

It'd have been morally-superior to die rather than fight for that regime.

Do I understand why millions would have chosen to live and fight?
Absolutely?
Does that mean I have to respect fighting for the world's most wicked regime, albeit under potential coercion?
Absolutely not.

Understanding and respecting something are two entirely different things...

If you pull the lever at a train station to switch the tracks and kill one innocent bystander to save five family members from an oncoming train...I 100% understand your decision. That doesn't mean that I have to respect your having done that.

BS. The German soldiers fought under Nazi colours to further the aims of the Nazi party. They were Nazis. They may not all have been true believers of everything the Nazis stood for, but they would have to have been blind and stupid to not know a good amount of what was going on. I dare say many of them had admirable qualities, and they were given a sterner test than most, but to a man every German soldier who fought for Hitler on D-day failed that test.

This is the "Edward Snowden is a Patriot" thread all over again...

"Respect," like "patriot," "love," "epic," and many, many other words are cheapened by overuse nowadays...and people therefore get upset or indignant when those words are NOT given to something, as if that constitutes an automatic insult.

Not bequeathing an honor to you is not an automatic dishonor...

Because, the thing about honors is...you have to EARN them, Or they mean nothing.

You have to EARN respect...or that word--and whatever you yourself might mean by "respect"--means nothing.

I honor and respect my grandfather who helped shell Munich's Nazi buildings, and I honor those that fought for the Allies 70 years ago to liberate France and the world.

I do NOT honor and respect those that fought on the side of tyranny that day, even if they themselves were fighting and did not wish to do so.

I might pity them for living in extremely difficult times and being coerced to fight...

But that pity does not extend so far as to use the same words for them--"respect"--as I would for the men who fought against them and died so we could have this free debate right now.

Not every German soldier was disgraced, but that does not mean they earned respect.

Also, what Octavious said, +1

"BS. The German soldiers fought under Nazi colours to further the aims of the Nazi party. They were Nazis"

Just because you repeat a lie doesn't make it so. Your assertion is the same as saying all soldiers were fighting under the Republican banner when Bush was President…and then instantly were fighting under the Democrat banner when Obama took office.

They were GERMAN soldiers. Not all German’s were members of the Nazi PARTY. Idiot…

It really is quite telling…and quite sad…that the once “open minded” Liberals in this country have become the hate-filled Libtards of today. What the fuck is wrong with you people, seriously?

"The German soldiers fought under Nazi colours to further the aims of the Nazi party."

Bullshit. Many were there under duress to keep their families alive. They weren't there to further the aims of the Nazi party. Your so full of shit, I'm surprised you can even stand the smell of your own breath.

"If you pull the lever at a train station to switch the tracks and kill one innocent bystander to save five family members from an oncoming train..."

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Five people saved versus one. The fact they were family is irrelevant. I admire the person for taking action and saving five people instead of one. Of course, now you will change it and say pulling the lever saved one family member and killed five innocent bystanders. I know the way you equivocate.

More to the point, there were German Regular soldiers, and the SS – the SS were the “Nazi” soldiers, and were *clearly* differentiated from the German regular.

You guys should listen to Draugnar in this matter, after all, he played the trombone that you might be free.

OK, I hit ESC to see what yellowbelly wrote...

Hey yellowbelly! I carried an M16-A1. Every Marine is first and foremost a rifleman, a grunt, able to defend himself and his fellow soldiers with honor in a firefight. You don't get out of boot camp if you can't do that. And Marine Corps bootcamp is the longest and toughest of all the US armed forces. So if you want to have a go, pick your weapon: rifle, pistol, k-bar, bayonet, or hand-to-hand. I can kill you in any of those ways you like. Ooh-rah!

This does seem a bit like saying every American soldier nowadays agrees totally with everything Obama does and fully endorses his presidency.

More to the point like every US soldier knew and fully supported the detaining of Japanese families at the time.

In my opinion there were guys who were there because it was expected that when your country goes to war, you sign up. They put their lives on the line and fought like hell. Their courage, regardless of which side they were on, is worthy of respect.

I'm not even sure that they were under duress (some undoubtedly were, especially in the Red army), but I'm sure some knew what damage WWI did to their country and were willingly fighting to make sure their families didn't have to live through that again.

@CA - The scene in Sound of Music where the Captain gets coerced into taking a command in the Nazi navy was very much a reality of the day. If your skills were required by the Nazis and you were hesitant, they made it very clear that bad things would happen if you were to *not* do as you were told.

@ Draugnar

Yeah, I agree. Nazi's weren't nice guys. I'm just thinking about the typical guy in the trenches. Most likely neither SS stormtrooper or having the Gestapo point a ruger a little sister's head.

I'm sure coercion happened.

My father-in-law's parents fled Nazi Germany in '38 when he was just 15 because they didn't want him forced into the Hitler youth program. He went on to fight for *our* side in the US Navy.

It was much more subtle than that. It was hinted at and alluded to, but never overtly stated according to my FiL.

" but I'm sure some knew what damage WWI did to their country and were willingly fighting to make sure their families didn't have to live through that again. "

ding ding...bonus points for understanding there is a *reason* Germany was led to war...and it had much to do with the harsh punishment the rest of those fuckers in Europe imposed upon them.

I...I find it absolutely hilarious that, for all his Godwinning and using Nazis as the stock comparison for all things evil (and, of course, liberal) krellin's the one DEFENDING German soldiers in WWII here...

*slow clap* braaaaavooooo...that's a new inconsistency-low even for you!

Then again, your Anti-Semitic streak and frequent use of the term "Jewkiller" might explain why you're in some respects none too harsh on the men fighting for the side that perpetrated the Holocaust.

That's the big difference maker here, krellin--

Yeah, not every US service member fights because they endorse Obama...

But they're likewise NOT fighting for a regime that encourages genocide and the worst crimes in human history.

I'm sorry, but the defense "I was just following orders!" is a bit worn, isn't it?

So worn, it's become a joke and a disgrace to any and all who hide behind it by this point?

"and it had much to do with the harsh punishment the rest of those fuckers in Europe imposed upon them"

That's nice...I don't care--you fight to defend a regime--hell, you defend a regime in any way, shape, or form PERIOD--that actively burns, shoots and gasses 6 million Jews, 5 million others and institutes arguably the single most evil state in the history of the world this side of Stalinist Russia, and guess what?

It doesn't matter--morally, you are WRONG for fighting for that regime and allowing the slaughter of millions to continue.

Just as it was wrong for US Servicemen to fight and allow for the murder of millions upon millions of Native Americans, there's NO respect to be given to them.

But hey, YOU'RE not a Jew, krellin...
YOU'RE not a Native American...
YOU'RE a nice, white, middle-class Christian American male...

Why should you care about a few genocides against injuns and Jewkillers, right?

Totally defensible, the men who fought to allow that to continue!