The solution to that is to raise the age you're allowed to enter the military, not lower the age you can drink.

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other?

I can train a 14 year old to be good with firearms, have decent tactical training, etc...that still doesn't mean he is responsible enough to handle alcohol, not to mention the damage alcohol can do to a developing brain.

Soldiers are a necessary evil of "civilization". Allowing people who's brains are already half mush to liquify them isn't a necessary evil.

And as former alcoholic, I am **wholly** against the notion of letting younger people drink. Yes...my bias, based upon my experience.

I think we should let the kid decide. If s/he wants to drink, then s/he can sign up for four years of military service after high school. No age restrictions. If a six year old wants an Old Milwaukee, it'll cost him four years of military service.

And none of that National Guard bullshit. I'm talking about the front lines at a FOB in the Hindu Kush.

Tolstoy - you are also quite wrong when you say that 18 year olds are "entrusted with the power of life and death". 18 year olds with weapons are generally under pretty strict orders as to when, how, who they can kill. it isn't a free-for-all.

And if you think 18 year olds can't handle following orders, I guess we need to revoke driver's licenses until they reach 21.

I agree with everything krellin has said in this thread.

I also am proud to say I know where Hindu Kush is from playing the WWIV map on vdip.

"It has always amused me that our government feels an 18 year old can be entrusted with the power of life and death on overseas battlefields but can't be trusted with beer."

...ummm you're allowed to drink on military bases if you're 18. Care to try again?

One of the things I used to enjoy doing as a child (around the age of 4) was eating the brandy soaked cherries from my Gran's glass. A glass of wine or sherry at the occasional dinner does no harm to a preteen child, and neither does a shandy or beer in controlled conditions. It encourages responsible use and takes away the mysticism.

Frankly I feel the minimum drinking age of 16 in a pub is about right. Far better to encounter alcohol in a controlled environment than with a bunch of other youngsters on the streets.

"...ummm you're allowed to drink on military bases if you're 18. Care to try again?"

So you're conceding they're not allowed to drink outside of a military base? If that's the case, why would I need to try again?

"And if you think 18 year olds can't handle following orders, I guess we need to revoke driver's licenses until they reach 21."

William Calley was 26 when he commanded the My Lai massacre. The 18 year olds under his command certainly proved themselves capable of following orders. Age is no guarantee of good behavior; neither are orders or the RoEs written by some 45-year old colonel in a cubicle thousands of miles away from the war.

I agree with krellin on this one.

<sad> I just ruined the reputation of two fellow webdippers, whom made the foolish mistake of publicly agreeing with me. Sorry, fellows, for your sudden loss of community status. :(

It just shows we're more open minded than you.

I agree with Krellin as well. Teens, (especially in this society), really suck at self-control. They absolutely can NOT handle alcohol in their pre-adult life. Maybe if we, as a nation, did a better job at teaching morals and self-discipline, we could allow for earlier consumption of liquor. But we don't, so we can't allow for it. Heck if we did a better job at teaching morals and self-control, (*cough* parenting *cough*), we would barely have to worry about most substance abuse...

Personally I find nothing wrong with encouraging, (not forcing), abstinence. You'll never know if you're an alcoholic if you don't ever drink.

"I agree with Krellin as well. Teens, (especially in this society), really suck at self-control. They absolutely can NOT handle alcohol in their pre-adult life. Maybe if we, as a nation, did a better job at teaching morals and self-discipline, we could allow for earlier consumption of liquor. But we don't, so we can't allow for it. "

Do you think maybe that's because we insist on treating them as kids who can't be responsible for their actions until they're 18 or 21?

Yes that's absolutely a problem. We treat teenagers as if they're kids and demand almost nothing from them; except that they pass high school and have fun. Then all of a sudden when they turn 18 or 21 we magically expect them to be responsible and productive members of society. It's yet another reason I hate our public school system: it does very little to promote responsibility and leadership. We definitely need to expect more from our teenagers and give them more responsibility; however giving them free reign to alcohol the right way to do this.

Here in the UK, alcohol is legal from age 18 (and younger in specific circumstances). It amazes me that a similar proposal for the USA is being met with such a strong negative reaction.

I'd like to think it's because, here in the U.S., we have a handful of people left with some common sense. They see the problems being caused by the liberalization of Western society and are actively trying to fight against it. Some might call them conservatives; as in the sense that they are desperately trying to conserve our nation from the liberals' corrupting onslaught.

Dang, I've been reading way too many of Krellin's posts...

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

mapu - you are not more opened minded than I am. I was just expressing my concern, not because of how open minded I may be or not be, but because I know how closed-minded those around you are who will judge you for affiliation with me.

I *care* about you. :)

the more practical issue is that no 18-year-old in America abstains unless he or she chooses to. the law is virtually unenforceable

semck - NO....it has everything to do with brain development, chemical balances, experience, etc etc etc. Your (childish) insistence that kids can be responsibile simply if we pretend they are is exactly the nonsense that comes out of kids that demonstrates they are not responsible.

The fact is, as a society, we are *far* more hands off of kids than we used to be, in terms of discipline, control, etc. Kids have far more leeway to act than they used to...and, I dare say, the results have not been impressive.

You used to drag a kid down to the principle's office and spank his ass when he got out of control. Now that's "abuse"...and instead of punishing the bully, we drag entire schools into anti-bullying assembly (taking them out of class), during which the bullies mock and snicker the speakers, and then go on about their bullying ways afterwards. We have told kids that they are entitled to everything, without expecting them to accomplish anything...and now our government thinks the definition of "kids" goes to age 26 - because that's how long lazy-ass Johnny will live in your basement sucking off your health care, instead of finding a couple friends, renting a small apartment and finding a low-paying job, which will eventually lead to a higher paying job, and so on.

No...kids clearly are not responsible. And I dare say those 18 years old in whos arms we shoved rifles and shipped off to war back in the 1940's would look at the pathetic state of youth today and spit on your shoes.

Yeah...that's about right, I think..

"...ummm you're allowed to drink on military bases if you're 18. Care to try again? "

you should try again. That got shange 25 years ago. Bases in the US are the same drinking age as the state in which they are located with a few small exceptions.

"One of the things I used to enjoy doing as a child (around the age of 4) was eating the brandy soaked cherries from my Gran's glass. A glass of wine or sherry at the occasional dinner does no harm to a preteen child, and neither does a shandy or beer in controlled conditions. It encourages responsible use and takes away the mysticism."

Which is why it isn't against the law to let your own child consume alcohol in your own home. You just can't serve it to other minors whose parents may pray not know about it

That's a rather odd way to say that, but I get your point. The law is virtually unenforceable unless it has the general support of those it effects. That's why the well-intended prohibition movement failed so miserably. It told the people not to do something without really educating them why they shouldn't do it. We can't expect people to be responsible unless we teach them why they should be responsible first.

If you were to spend a day as an observant high-school student nowadays, you'd realize how truly screwed we are as a nation....

It's so very sad...

Thank God I'll be dead before some current fucktard in HS takes the reigns of the Whitebouse.

please.

this generation is incredibly intelligent and has naturally assimilated to modern technology like a child learning a second language. we're fine.

every generation thinks the next one is the worst. it's a boring shtick, find something intellectually valuable