I meant the link to Putin33's post that I quoted above.

I have to admit that wasn't clear though.

So are we witnessing the start of WWIII?

Hell no. We're not going to fight over Crimea... I hope.

If we do, I wouldn't even know which side I would want to be on.
I'd probably look for the first flight I could get to whatever neutral country I can find. I'm not going to die for a power struggle I seek to be no part of.

WWIII, is the extinction of the human race, so everybody need to hope, it doesn't come to that

Read the attittudes here. People don't care about nationalism any more. They want to survive, to read things on wikipedia, to love each other. I don't think WWIII will occur, but if it does I guarantee 99% of people will be against it.

On the flipside it takes far less people to conduct a war nowadays.

You are absolutely correct, SYnapse.

The only caveat is, what if they're being taken over by a country that doesn't let them read what they want on Wikipedia? That persecutes them for loving the person they want to love? What will people do then?

I'm not in favor of war. Neither am I in favor of drunk driving. But if a motorcycle hang insists on getting plastered and driving around my town drunk, they should be stopped, and if they do not come willingly and respond with force, violence should be used to subdue them. This is the way society works, albeit at it's darkest moments.

Internationally it is the same picture. I hate war, but if a country as large and powerful as Russia will not be responsible enough to refrain from annexing other countries in 2014, they must be restrained, and if they refuse and respond with force, they have to be physically defeated.

Annexation is illegal point blank. It's against the very essence of modern international norms and it is, yes, something I would fight and die for on the unlikely chance that my country actually stands up to a criminal like Putin.

I'd rather die trying to protect the international order we've all benefitted from so much than watch it crumble in front of me as I enter middle age.

My two cents. I don't expect this view to be taken seriously but there you have it.

Kinda off topic but, has anyone else seen Putin33 in a TON of forum chat?

We're only one bombing/assassination away from a war over there it would seem. We're all just waiting for the spark. Just a matter of time.

yeah imagine that, or imagine living in a country like ukraine that has laws which are more homophobic than russia, and a government that you didn't vote for that is enacting laws that seem to be targetting you. then what will people do? vote in favour of joining russia in a referendum perhaps.

Under Russian military occupation? With two options neither of which represent remaining status unchanged in Ukraine? Even as Russia lies about who those armed men guarding infrastructure are? With 97% approval? You must be joking.

Today Putin called the 97% margin a "convincing figure." I really hope he sees the irony.

If Russia was serious about self-determination for Crimea, they would have engaged the UN over it. Not fucking invaded and scheduled a referendum for two weeks away. It's hard to believe that even Putin33 could buy that kind of propaganda, whether they agree with Russia's motives or not.

it's not unchanged status if the country has already declared itself independent. and the UN is a bs organisation that acts as a western lackey more often than not. This isn't to say that russia really cares about anything other than their own interest, they wanted crimea and made sure they would get it, but that doesn't mean that the majority of people didn't favour joining russia.

If we end up getting into WWIII, a) it's not going to be a war where masses of people get put on the ground, and b) it's probably going to be mostly kept out of the public eye, at least as much as possible. Neither Russia nor the United States federal systems (i.e. governments, but more society in general) would be able to prevent a massive anarchic collapse if the two legitimately started fighting.

Not even China could be persuaded to vote against the UNSC resolution calling the Crimea referendum illegitimate. Not even China who doesn't even pretend to democracy and who continues to attempt to cement its own annexations of Xinjiang and Tibet.

Imagine if there were enough Jewish settlers in the West Bank to constitute a majority, at which point the IDF invades, all the while denying it has genuinely done so, schedules a referendum two weeks away and after that time has elapsed annexes the territory into Israel.

No in fact that's not even fair. Israel for it's part has been occupying the West Bank for decades. Imagine if China did this to Mongolia or even Siberia on the justification that more Hans live there than other ethnicities. It's an outrage.

On the other side of the coin Thucy, imagine being part of a country that was given away to another country for remedial purposes. Despite living in a 90% majority you are considered part of a foreign country which happens to fall into civil disorder and is set to join a large economic and cultural entity you don't identify with. Imagine during your strife your home country actually comes to protect you and calls for your vote as to what you wish to happen. You vote to leave the new nation and join your racial and historical homeland, only for that economic empire to denounce the vote as illegitimate.

thucy, you're an idiot, the ethnic russians in the crimea hadn't just arrived, and they are the ones i was talking about.

oh and +1 sy.

We won't get into a shooting war with Russia over just Crimea, so this is a pointless discussion. Maybe it leads to conflict with Turkey which leads to conflict in the Middle East or something crazy like that, but I'd be surprised. The USA just doesn't care enough to risk war between nuclear powers, and rightly so. Despite what Thucy says, the people of Crimea are not worth the risk of nuclear war, which would mean at nest the near-extinction of human life and the end of most human societies.

Plus, Russia doesn't want a real war, it wants to posture. It isn't 1954, Russia isn't a superpower anymore. They've got lots of nukes and natural gas, but also a declining alcoholic population and a GDP the size of large (but not largest) U.S. state. A war with a real country who could do something about it would be the end of Russia's great power pretensions for generations.

At best, rather.

Thucydides: Mongolia is actually claimed by the Republic of China.

@ckroberts - I agree that we probably won't get into a shooting war, mainly because we all know that the end result will still be Crimea remaining Russian, going to war on how that happened would be the most pointless war ever. That said I was concerned about listening to House of Commons debate today. More than one MP mentioned military action and sending ships to Black Sea 'on exercise'.

I was really surprised how much consensus there was in the commons.

I bet you that people in Crimea who didn't want to join Russia were intimidated into not showing up to cast a vote for the referendum.

First of all, I don't know why the USA is suddenly realizing that annexation is unethical. Hell, nearly half of the mainland United States (and the massively significant strategic foothold of Hawaii) was annexed.

ckroberts is right. This isn't about picking a climactic showdown with the West. It's about posturing. Putin is being a geopolitical dick just because he wants Russia to be taken more seriously.

Every country was constituted by annexation at some point in the past. It was wrong then as now but at least now it is considered illegal, according to everyone except the Russians apparently.

Talk of Crimea's self-determination is all well and good but if that is what pro-annexationists are arguing for, why not do it the right, legal way, with a fair vote and under the protection of neutral observers? Rather than 2 weeks after a military invasion by an interested party?

And to ckroberts, this is less about the people of Crimea and more about the iteration all norm against, you know, conquest.

Why are people making such a fuss about Crimea while simultaneously not caring at all about the elected President that was thrown out of Kiev?

Probably because aforesaid president was ousted following bloody crackdowns on innocent protesters and after attempts to remove legal protections of free speech and the right to protest