Mujus - I've offered you my opinion in the past, which you rejected completely. You, posting verbatim from the Bible, without offering any interpretation or commentary, is utterly useless. I'm pretty darned sure everyone here has access to the Bible (either is book form, or from the very internet that you copy it from)...so if they are inclined to read the Bible, they will.

The Apostle Paul was an expert on God's word....he didn't stroll in to town, read scripture verbatim, and leave. He expounded upon it, he discussed it, etc. So you have failed to learn from the examples provided to you by the individuals in the very book you are posting from in hopes that someone will learn from it. YOU haven't learned from it, clearly...so why would you expect anyone else to with you dull, pointless verbatim presentation?

Sincere answer. It is not of any interest. Reasons why include the fact that you're just pasting bible passages in a spam like manner. There is no commentary about how the passage is relevant, what it means, or anything. Not that I'd enjoy reading that either, but it'd be better than spam and at least potentially solicit discussion.

I would like your thread if it had some verse discussion, and had a larger scope (say include the Torah, Quran, Ancient Vedas, etc.) I'm sincerely interested in religion, including Christianity. Don't give up tho, keep the faith. Just make it interesting, this isn't a church and we aren't all exactly followers. Know 'um sayin?

Another example that will strike home to the WebDip community: SOW - The School of War. This is intended as a learning series. It works like this: The topic is the game of Diplomacy. If SOW functioned in Mujus' world, they would simply post the lastest moves and that would be it - no comments, no discussion. Instead, the moves are available for those inclined to learn, the then the SOW thread *explains, offers commentaries, interpretation, etc*.

I hope you see what I am saying...and I hope -- as I have suggested in the past -- that you offer commentary with your Biblical postings. (For the record, you can cut-and-paste commentaries from the interwebs, too...though your own thoughts would probably be more constructive, and you might actually attract a few flies with your personal honey...)

You are like a butchers in a cinema. No matter how great a butchers you may be, or how many of the cinema goers would appreciate a good steak, you will never make a success of it because it's the wrong place at the wrong time.

As someone who dearly loves the Bible, I think I'm with the others. Simple copy and paste doesn't seem like an adequate method to expose others to the depth of material in the Bible. That said, I think you're heart is probably admirable. If others can post their own philosophical worldview, you have every right to post about yours, but advising that you do so with some of your own commentary/thoughts is probably wise.

Plus, I actually think YOU would get more out of it if you were to let us in on your own musings from each day's passage.

And if anyone needs a copy of the bible, can i recommend this translation: http://lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Here is Ezekiel 23:19-20: 'Buts she just maks teh notty danse mors and mores becuz is how she useded to play as chiled. An she wuz rly gudz at it.20 She liekd teh guys with teh big dixxxes... teh RLY big uns, like donkeys LOL... and massiv cumbuckits like horse!

Mujus, If you feel called to do it, then do it. If you don't, then don't. Don't base your decision on what other people say.

If you decide to continue, and If it helps someone, then great. If it doesn't then no harm done.

Ora, that's just rude. I don't like to read those kinds of posts. I guess that's what mute is for.

@muju, that is a bible quote. Seriously, it's one of my favourites. You're the one who keeps bringing up the book?

But ok, i'm being less than serious. That is an answer in itself. I don't care whether you post about the bible, here or anywhere else.

Devonian - that was utterly destructive advice. "If you feel called...do it...regardless of the impact." idiotic. He's doing it (presumably) because he wants to spread the Gospel, wants people to read and learn about his God, presumably so they can be guided towards salvation.

If the very people he is trying to reach are saying, "Don't read, don't care, because we can tell you put no effort in to it, and there is no meaning because you copied and pasted like a monkey...and you are insulting us, because you are too lazy to dialogue with us..." then it absolutely matters what people think, because he is presumably doing it FOR those people.

That's like some idiot opening a restaurant and serving shit on a plate and when the customers tell him his food sucks, and we're never coming back, you hop along and say, "Hey...you're hearts in the right place...screw those ignorant customes with their bad palates...you just keep pouring your heart out into this empty restaurant."

You think God honors failed intentions when you know *exactly* what you need to do to get better results, but refuse to do them?

Bottom line....I *guarantee* this is the thinking: Oold Mujus *literally* thinks he's scoring points with God by copying and pasting the Bible into a thread. He's happy with the C+ on his GRC (God's report card), and thinks he's getting a housing upgrade in Heaven for his "good works"...

Except God also expect work to bear fruit...and his efforts are specifically NOT bearing fruit (which he has pointed out himself), and yet he refuses to put any further effort in to this endeavor FOR GOD....i.e. He won't put out extra effort for God....then God is probably giving him a D- and he's living in a shack next to the dumpster...

Nicely said Krellin.

Though i would question the intent aswell, if we want to have a conversation about why anyone would seek to promote their religion. (as opposed to letting people find out about it by reading for themselves, which i believe the lolcat bibel allows)

Krellen, what you fail to realize is that Mujus is not in control of the outcome. You're not in control. I'm not in control.

So, failed or successful attempts are completely out of our control. They are firmly under God's control. And claiming to know *exactly* what is needed is placing yourself in God's position.

I doubt you have the ability to read his innermost thoughts like you seem to claim. But, if his intent is to score points with God, then he might as well give it up.

I also doubt you have the ability of knowing that his efforts are "specifically NOT bearing fruit". Only an omniscient being could know that.

orthaic, I understand 100% what the intent *should* be.

Presumably, the argument for intent goes like this:
1. People are evil and are going to all die and go to Hell (I'm jumping ahead in the story, I know)

2. God's send Jesus, the wholly God/wholly Man, perfect human to die on the cross and save us all from our sins because he is the perfect lamb, and the high priest - the only one capable of offering the perfect sacrifice and being that same sacrifice - it is an "unjust" death of an infinite being - thus is is the only acceptable sacrifice with the "power" to cover all sin (AND YES - there is a reason this is part of the argument -- I'm not just giving it to slip to gospel in on you - it ties in with WHY you have to spread the gospel as a Christian)

3. God's tell us if you want eternal life, which I offer because I love you - my creation - then you have to accept this gift of my Son - accept that He is me, that He is God, that he died for your sins. Boom....you're in the club - the pool is heated, just pick up your towels when you're done.

4. Now...because I did this thing for you - the whole suffering your insufferable idiots, living amongst you, putting up with your crap and then letting you go through that God-awful haning on the cross thing (which, really, I blanked out the pain....I'm still God, you know, and it was, like, a micro-nothing compared to my infiniteness...but anyway...)....BECAUSE I did all that for you, I'd like you to DEMONSTRATE to me that when you said you loved me and got the keys to the pool house that you really do love me...so...this is the deal:

4a. God said to stop being a dick. All of you. Stop being dicks to everyone. Because, you see, while you were still all acting like dicks, God died on the cross for you as a sacrifice to cover your diskishness. And the very least you can do in return is to stop being dicks to each other. In fact....I'd actually like you to LOVE EVERYONE...like God loved you...

5. ...and here's the whole circle back around thing: IF God loved you so much that he decided to be a hero and die on the cross for you, then the very least expectation that He has for his believers is that they do the courtesy of telling other people about Him, because if people don't ever hear about Him, they will never, ever, ever get in to the pool house. Ever.

If I love you as I am supposed to, like the example of Christ dying on the cross, then the very least I can do....the very least i *MUST* do for you....is tell you about what I believe....because it is the example of Christ dying on the cross, in that I am going to sacrifice myself, offer myself as a living, daily sacrifice to do this simple thing for God and just tell other people about him.

So at this point, Mujus *has* to tell people about God, or else he's being a dick.

Devonian - he absolutely IS in control of the outcome, because he has been told countless times that if he wasn't such a lazy putz and if he actually offered up some commentary instead of doing that **absolute minimum** (copy and paste) then he WOULD affect the outcome, because multiple people at multiple times have asked him to do something different, something more.

He's hear asking the question again for the very same reason.

You defending his laziness is kind of pathetic.

As for your "Oh...it's under God's control...I don't have to expend any extra effort because I 'planted the seed' and someone else will water it"....BULLSHIT.

I guess when you walk in to church Sunday you get what? Pastor/Preacher just posts the daily reading on the front door and stays home?

Mujus has choosen to inject himself in the position of deliverer of God's Word. He has choosen to play the part of Preacher/Prophet/Whatever....to pretend othersie is to be a damned liar.

So if he is going to pretend to be God's messenger, then he's an utter failure....BY CHOICE...because of his laziness and refusal to even give a hint at what the word means.

I can't believe you are actually defending his laziness.

Devonian -- I *can* specifically know that he is not bearing any fruit because:
1. He is posting in a discussion forum, in which everything from webdiplomacy, religion, politics of every brand and flavor, racism, sexism, lion vs. shark fights....ALL OF IT IS DISCUSSED.

2. The only topic that consistently and utterly *fails* to create any conversation is his copy and paste of the bible.

A discussion thread that fails to generate discussion is a failure, and has born no fruit.

I guarantee you I could put up a thread about what food groups generate the best and worst smelling shits, and I could generate discussion. His bible thread generates none. It is a failure, period.

@Krellin. Ok, I do understand the position, I raised in a catholic environment (not that my parents had much choice but to send me to a catholic school, but that's Ireland in the 80s... 90s, 00s... yeah, let's not talk about that or i may get a little depressed)

There is a question of effectiveness, which boils down to speaking a different language - one where 'People are evil', 'going to all die and go to Hell' and 'immortal soul' are well defined ideas.

But the intent is also, I am able to help other people. And should do so whether they want my help or not.

Now knowing where the intention comes from and agreeing that it is right/good/moral or even useful are two different things.

The usefulness is something you've addressed clearly. I fear only philosophical rambling if we talk about what is right/good/moral. So lets talk about usefulness.

Only through these words can humanity be saved. Well sure, but it's ok to translate them, apparently english is fine. So perhaps we can do something useful; find a common message with others - who i claim are speaking a different language (perhaps they are scientific rationalist, or strong agnostics) - find some common ground on morality and discuss what collective enlightened message you can spread.

It doesn't matter if the characters in your message change, so long as the good it does is real. So long as it effectively changes people for the better, we can drop the entire bible and actually talk about what it means for your life today. How should you live it? How can we get along with others? (or in your words 'Stop being dicks to everyone.')

If which ever translation of the bible doesn't matter (and i hold up this idea to complete parody with the lolcat translation) then it doesn't matter if you spread the same message without quoting the bible at all. Merely the ideas it contains.

And i would argue that this is the most useful use Mujus could spend his time here - finding a common language with those who will otherwise continue to ignore and berate him.

Krellin, here's the nice part for me and, I presume, for Mujus. We don't have to convince you of anything. Either God will or he won't. But, its not our responsibility.

If you believe you are omniscient, then that is your burden to carry. I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I suspect someday you will learn it for yourself.

Out of curiosity, do you believe in God?

Devonian, why do you oppose individualized paths to enlightenment or salvation?

Devonian - my personal beliefs are none of your concern. My understand of Biblical doctrine, on the other hand....you know, that book he keeps vomitting up on the forum without a care as to its effectiveness...I suspect is a little deeper than yours, given your utter ignorance on the topic. it funny, because in every single walk in life, every single profession you will ever hold, *everything*, we judge outcomes, not just intent.

That you think God is so simple-minded that he will look at Mujus self-admitted feeble effort and judge it good is utterly ridiculous.

If you can find me one *single* Biblical example of any prohpet, apostle, etc simply dumping scripture on people and then walking away, I'll drop my argument entirely. But sense you won't find that example in the Bible, then I will against assert that Mujus - and you - know little to nothing about this book you (presumably) love, and I asure you that your God is disappointed in you.

Tomorrow is Sunday....perhaps you should take up this discussion with you Pastor/Priest/Prophet...I'd be curious what he/she has to say...if you are man enough to have the discussion honestly and report back.

orathaic, but presumably Mujus believe that the story of Jesus dying on the cross, and that story alone is the key to salvation, and that anything else is of the devil, and a distraction from the truth.

He does not have a choice in language (I don't mean englsih vs french vs greek vs whatever.....I mean the language of God, Jesus, the Bible). His dailogue is fixed and specific by his specific belief, and to fail to use that specific language would be sin. Worse, fail to use that language is *literal* hatred for his fellow man, because failure for them to hear and believe is eternal damnation to Hell....a very specific and literal belief, I assume, which can not adequately be captured in any other language but the concept of Hell itself.

@orthaic -- the only question becomes how long, how far, how deep, how often, etc one is "required" by their belief to put forth their message.

The Apostle Paul travelled from town to town -- he spread his message (carefully, fully, **explaining his message** and **taking questions from the audience** no doubt....hint hint mujus...), and then Paul moved on. There was a point in time when Paul realized I've said what i can say and no further badgering of these people will make a difference....as Dev points out, it was in God's hand at that time (*AFTER* Paul put in the necessary work....up front....actual work...hint hint Mujus)

So we aren't to pick a group and badger them forever ad nauseum...but we have to be very specific about what we badger them about, in specific terms/language about a specific God.

Frankly, God doesn't give a crap if you "stop being a dick" unless you stopped being a dick specifically because you believe in Him and Jesus...the intention of your non-dickisness is key to his giving you the key to the pool.

Krellin, we are not talking about outcomes within the natural world, are we? We are talking about outcomes that superseded the natural world. You are trying to superimpose natural measurements on supernatural things.

I by no means think God is simple minded. Just the opposite, we cannot even presume to know what is working and what is not.

Putin,
If by individualized paths to the one true salvation, I don't.
If you mean individualized paths to any possible salvation, because that would be contradictory.

krellin, you are stating all kinds of personal beliefs. I just asked for clarification on one of them.

"If you mean individualized paths to any possible salvation, because that would be contradictory."

Why would it be contradictory? Why couldn't Indians reading the Ramayana acquire enlightenment just as well as Americans reading the Bible? Couldn't god come in different forms to different people?

"God doesn't give a crap if you "stop being a dick" unless you stopped being a dick specifically because you believe in Him and Jesus...the intention of your non-dickisness is key to his giving you the key to the pool." - then i rather pity your God... he seems to lack a measure of understanding. But i do suspect that is a claim made by a man-made religion and not an omnipotent being... But again, lets avoid getting into a philosophical arguement (if only on the basis that a never-ending arguement may be ineffective, regardless of our intent :).

The question of language is an important one, how can you possibly convey the message without speaking in a way the audience understand and appreciates.

If you believe that God literally wrote the bible, then all well and good, but if you want other's to read the 'Word of God' you need to first actually interest them.

I'd like to ask Mujus where he stands on this, though you may represent his position perfectly, does it matter how he begins a conversation if the end result is his target going to the bible?

@Mujus

To phrase my initial question a different way:

If something was important to me (as the Christ clearly is to you), I would want to explain it in a way that helped people understand its importance.

For example, I like Chess. So maybe I'd come on to webDip and say "Hey, guys, I play Chess. Is anyone interested in playing/talking about Chess?" That could lead to an interesting discussion.

If, however, I post one Chess rule every day, even though no one was responding, not only would I look like an ass, but it's very likely that someone who may be interested in playing would be turned off by the idea.

Dev - I haven't stated all sorts of "personal beliefs" -- I explained to you what the content of your Bible is. I suppose if I explained chemsitry to you from a text book that would be a belief, too? No...it would be chemistry, as per the text book.

When I explain to you how Paul conducted himself, for example, that is in the book. It's not a belief. When I explain to you salvation, I explain it as it is described in the Bible. that you see these as "my beliefs" and not "what's in the bible" again indicates that your knowledge of the Bible is sorely lacking.

If you disagree with me on some specific assertion I made about the content of the Bible, then by all means, quote me chapter and verse and lets have a Biblical discussion! Mujus is certainly too afraid to discuss the Bible...that's the whole point of this!!

And Devonian...if you think that outcomes in the heavenly world will not be demonstrated by outcomes in the natural world, then you, again, are demonstrating your abject failure to understand that book you claim to love.

Putting the Bible and doctrine aside....just talking man to man <wink wink> if you are truly stupid enough to think that an empty thread with *ZERO* discussion, in a forum in which the price of poo in a cow pasture can generate 100 replies is effective by *any* measure, then you are a hopeless fool...and I mean fool in a Biblical, Proverbs kind of way. If you think the a 0.001% effort that Mujus is putting forth for God (copy and paste...20 second for God he gives...woooopeee...) is somehow noble and good, then I know where you stand in your relationship to God, as well. (Yes, I just judged you...)