Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 1.11

FlaviusAetius(5) - Balki Bartokomous, Dargorygel, Foxcastle, Moscowfleet, Tom Bombadil
bozotheclown(3) - Percy Williams, et, Damo666
ChippeRock(3) - bozotheclown, EspressoPatronum, Durga
TrPrado(2) - FlaviusAetius, ChippeRock
CruaaderReynauld(2) - ND, Teacon7
teacon7(2) - connorcompton, Nephthys
MoscowFleet(1) - Squigs44
Durga(1) - Carl Tuckerson  
Percy Williams(1) - xorxes
Foxcastle(1) - Rdrivera2005
No‑Lynch(1) - CruaaderReynauld

Unvoted: TrPrado (who must cast a valid vote by EoD)

FLAVIUS.A. is scheduled to be hung.

76 minutes are left!

[Squigs44]

Can we just lynch all the stupid players?

[Carl Tuckerson]

Still feeling fairly good about Durga being mafia, but I will move to someone else on the list that we can actually kill. Especially suspicious of dargorygel and Foxcastle right now because I have not the slightest clue where they're coming from re: Flavius and I hate that they both just piled on in the last few hours of the day to put him in the lead.

This is terrible reasoning. You think it's bad for someone to vote on the lead wagon several hours out? Then what's the point of trying to convince people? Also, I explained my vote, so you shouldn't be totally bereft, but feel free to ask questions if you're unclear.

I think it's bad for people to come ride in after doing nothing all day and vote for someone I think is clearly town based literally only on getting information rooted in a ridiculous theory that was stale 24 hours ago, and not on actually trying to find mafia:

However, that does also mean that if Flavius does flip scum, we can probably narrow down a somewhat narrower pool of players for the next scum. He posted the smart/experienced comment less than an hour after game start, so if the latter theory is true (which it might not be, even if he is scum), the Secretary posted it within the first hour, and then I would bet came to the game thread to say hello.

Actually, Flavius could be a high enough value lynch that it's worth it to see how he flips. If he's scum, I think that puts town even further ahead than if we manage to catch another one.

The fact that you don't have any comment on what the information means if he's town is bogus. How are you going to justify voting to hang someone because they're a "valuable flip" if you have no idea what it means if they flip town?

[connorcompton]

Hello again.
So I'm only really available in the early morning and now in the evening (in the UK) and I also really want to read everything before I start talking, so the morning slot is filled up with catchup. I'm always available for the phase switch though and after this I should be able to properly engage here. Let's go through my list shall we?

0. I like being light. I wasn't expecting every single word I say to be deeply analysed. It looks like I have to stay serious or make it very clear I am joking. Don't worry, it's not you, it's me.

1. Balki vs. teacon. A while a go now but I found Balki's 'smarmy' argument decent, but not AI. I think not getting to the point could easily be a sign of being just a bad town. Also, apparently teacon acted this way last game as town, so with that he could go either way. This makes me think that if he's town now, he should surely try and correct his mistake, rather than replicate it. (Overall though I still think he's Mafia, I'll get to that later)

2. Balki. I trust you. The comment previously was before your argument with teacon, and while I don't think your argument was particularly convincing, it put you in an earnest light for me.

3. CruaaderReynauld. Ok, before, when we all assumed you were inexperienced, I was completely with you and TrPrado and ND's (and teacon) accusations seemed completely jumping the gun and trying to create a bandwagon. When we learned you had played a decent amount before, I understood their point, but that's not important. What's important is that they tore into you without that knowledge, which I think is a scum indicator.

4. Teacon! Thanks for posting about Cruaader, only makes me more sure. I think reading me scum so early (Durga's fine, there's reason there) was weird, I think your level of discourse is not in-depth enough to be committed town, or two light to be relaxed town, which is also weird. I think jumping on the Cruaader bandwagon is also weird. I think there are two many weird things. I'm keeping my vote. I'm in no way certain, but more convinced than to anyone else.

5. Let's talk about 'lurkers' some more. There is a very convincing argument that lurkers are never the best choice to lynch, and that's why they should be lynched quickly. This makes sense, but it's clear not all 'lurkers' are mafia. I was just accused of lurking by Durga, but I have been reading as much as I can.
Moscow posted a bit near the beginning, then recently posted to say he had just gotten of a flight. If that's true, absence from the game is understandable.
Counter to that, bozo has occasionally entered to leave useless comments then leave again, ignoring people's questions. This is an example of a Scum-indicative lurker. Still not voting that way though now.

6. TrPrado's D1 read extravaganza is interesting. I think it clearly shows effort, but also, broadcasting that effort may be his only intention there. I think in terms of analysis, it's quite poor, more than I could do, but alot of it seems to be a dramatised inflation of importance of unimportant speech. But regardless, I have to answer the questions:

i.Why did you include Flavius in your reads?
ii.Why did you vote for teacon if you think it's hard to justify?
iii.What are your reasons for reading him specifically for it?
iv.Why does Balki seem scummy to you?

i. I felt like I needed to, he was such a major focus of discussion throughout the early dialogue. (incorrectly I believe) I now appreciate that only making comments on people there are comments to be made about is important.

ii. I was decently confident he was Mafia, but I found explaining that feeling difficult, I hope my above explanation suffices.

iii. I hope my above explanations suffices.

iv. He doesn't anymore. I don't really know how I got that impression.

7. @dargorygel, you've asked if I know Carl. No. We played (he beated me at) a pair of 2-player Diplomacy games with me and in my 2nd classic I've played. We ended on good terms and he was the only person I recognised here so thought I'd mention that. And apparently it's his first game here aswell, so that's fun.

That's all from me right now, I'm glad to have gotten it done before End of Phase and I'll be here for the next few hours. (not lurking)

[ChippeRock]

here's a vote for a reason then

##vote chippe

are you happy now?

I think this is a great reason for why Durga should be lynched. Players with some experience playing Mafia - such as Durga - simply don't OMGUS vote other people. What are the odds this is an actual OMGUS vote? It's more likely a fake OMGUS vote to appear more towny and to deflect suspicion from the points I brought up.

you're not voting me so how exactly is it OMGUS

It's effectively one since I've previously voted for you, I expressed interest to join your wagon, and I pointed out things that make you scummy.

You claim you don't want to waste the time reading people on D1, but your high amount of posts indicates you have plenty of time - I mean, what are you doing between posts of yours that are minutes apart? You're not spending that time reading other players, you're not spending that time typing up long responses - there is literally no explanation on why you don't have the time to read at least several people in depth.

[bozotheclown]

Here is why ChippeRock should be lynched today. He started the game by copying the VT role PM, presumably from the game setup post, but also said he could verify the real VT role PM matches it exactly since he is a VT, claiming this proves to the other VTs that he is a VT. First, this is obviously not proof that he is a VT since as scum he could verify his role PM matched the role PM in the game setup exactly, and assume all the other role matched as well. Second, if he really is a VT, copying the role PM from the game setup and saying that his real PM is exactly the same is no different than copying his role PM, which is a clear violation of the rules. Since the GM stated he did not break any rules, he must not be a VT, and very likely mafia.

Also, the fact that ChippeRock has stopped talking about this "VT proof" claim after he was no longer the lead wagon makes it look even more like a scum ploy that did not work out as expected.

You said you thought Chip is scum. That was fake claim?

Sorry, I am not clear what you are asking. Are you asking if I think ChippeRock's VT claim was fake? If so, the answer is yes.

[Foxcastle]

Still feeling fairly good about Durga being mafia, but I will move to someone else on the list that we can actually kill. Especially suspicious of dargorygel and Foxcastle right now because I have not the slightest clue where they're coming from re: Flavius and I hate that they both just piled on in the last few hours of the day to put him in the lead.

This is terrible reasoning. You think it's bad for someone to vote on the lead wagon several hours out? Then what's the point of trying to convince people? Also, I explained my vote, so you shouldn't be totally bereft, but feel free to ask questions if you're unclear.

I think it's bad for people to come ride in after doing nothing all day and vote for someone I think is clearly town based literally only on getting information rooted in a ridiculous theory that was stale 24 hours ago, and not on actually trying to find mafia:

However, that does also mean that if Flavius does flip scum, we can probably narrow down a somewhat narrower pool of players for the next scum. He posted the smart/experienced comment less than an hour after game start, so if the latter theory is true (which it might not be, even if he is scum), the Secretary posted it within the first hour, and then I would bet came to the game thread to say hello.

Actually, Flavius could be a high enough value lynch that it's worth it to see how he flips. If he's scum, I think that puts town even further ahead than if we manage to catch another one.

The fact that you don't have any comment on what the information means if he's town is bogus. How are you going to justify voting to hang someone because they're a "valuable flip" if you have no idea what it means if they flip town?

"Doing nothing all day"? Come on. First of all, it's Day 1, so manage your expectations; and second of all, you can critique my play and my actions all you like, but it's silly to say I've done nothing.

If he's town, we done fucked up. But here's a fun fact: town mislynches on Day 1 a lot, so yeah, I'm just going for what I think is the best chance. If you've got a better, more ironclad case, go ahead and push it.

[FlaviusAetius]

Just the one.

You mean to tell me that you have absolutely no other reads on the other players?

yes

WHAT?
Big fat lie right here

[connorcompton]

Here is why ChippeRock should be lynched today. He started the game by copying the VT role PM, presumably from the game setup post, but also said he could verify the real VT role PM matches it exactly since he is a VT, claiming this proves to the other VTs that he is a VT. First, this is obviously not proof that he is a VT since as scum he could verify his role PM matched the role PM in the game setup exactly, and assume all the other role matched as well. Second, if he really is a VT, copying the role PM from the game setup and saying that his real PM is exactly the same is no different than copying his role PM, which is a clear violation of the rules. Since the GM stated he did not break any rules, he must not be a VT, and very likely mafia.

Also, the fact that ChippeRock has stopped talking about this "VT proof" claim after he was no longer the lead wagon makes it look even more like a scum ploy that did not work out as expected.

The fact that Chippe has stopped talking about it is a brilliant sign of him moving on and a relief to the entire town (including him).
Also, would you mind sticking around and talking about something else?

[Squigs44]

Bozos argument against Chippe is flawed and he isn't talking about anything else. I'd much rather he went than Flav

##vote Bozo

[Durga]

I think this is a great reason for why Durga should be lynched. Players with some experience playing Mafia - such as Durga - simply don't OMGUS vote other people. What are the odds this is an actual OMGUS vote? It's more likely a fake OMGUS vote to appear more towny and to deflect suspicion from the points I brought up.

you're not voting me so how exactly is it OMGUS

It's effectively one since I've previously voted for you, I expressed interest to join your wagon, and I pointed out things that make you scummy.

You claim you don't want to waste the time reading people on D1, but your high amount of posts indicates you have plenty of time - I mean, what are you doing between posts of yours that are minutes apart? You're not spending that time reading other players, you're not spending that time typing up long responses - there is literally no explanation on why you don't have the time to read at least several people in depth.

And I've previously voted for you, does that mean when you voted me YOU were doing the OMGUS? :) Can you stop being annoying please. Go and push the person you're voting for, or vote for me. It makes no sense to me that you're up my ass but aren't even voting for me, yet I don't even know where your vote is because you're not pushing that person at all.

For the record, I am going back and reading various ISOs and have been doing so for the past hour. Please don't assume things.

[Carl Tuckerson]

This is terrible reasoning. You think it's bad for someone to vote on the lead wagon several hours out? Then what's the point of trying to convince people? Also, I explained my vote, so you shouldn't be totally bereft, but feel free to ask questions if you're unclear.

I think it's bad for people to come ride in after doing nothing all day and vote for someone I think is clearly town based literally only on getting information rooted in a ridiculous theory that was stale 24 hours ago, and not on actually trying to find mafia:

However, that does also mean that if Flavius does flip scum, we can probably narrow down a somewhat narrower pool of players for the next scum. He posted the smart/experienced comment less than an hour after game start, so if the latter theory is true (which it might not be, even if he is scum), the Secretary posted it within the first hour, and then I would bet came to the game thread to say hello.

Actually, Flavius could be a high enough value lynch that it's worth it to see how he flips. If he's scum, I think that puts town even further ahead than if we manage to catch another one.

The fact that you don't have any comment on what the information means if he's town is bogus. How are you going to justify voting to hang someone because they're a "valuable flip" if you have no idea what it means if they flip town?

"Doing nothing all day"? Come on. First of all, it's Day 1, so manage your expectations; and second of all, you can critique my play and my actions all you like, but it's silly to say I've done nothing.

If he's town, we done fucked up. But here's a fun fact: town mislynches on Day 1 a lot, so yeah, I'm just going for what I think is the best chance. If you've got a better, more ironclad case, go ahead and push it.

You really think it's the best chance that Flavius is non-Secretary mafia, the Secretary is experienced mafia and told Flavius that Balki was good, and Flavius blabbed it in the thread? That's your idea of "best chance"?

[FlaviusAetius]

Teacon Is Smarmy, a Symposium

#teaconissmary
#smarmyteacon

I. Examples of Teacon Being Smarmy

Here are some examples of teacon being smarmy:

Seriously though, what do you have against joke phases?

@balki where have you been? Why are you and squigs both doing gut-reaction "pings" ?

@Nephthys
Do you like joke phases? Why?
Do you always play like this?
Do you prefer playing scum or town?

@CruaaderReynauld
@Carl Tuckerson
@ChippeRock
…
• If so, do you you prefer to play as mafia or town?
• Are you secretly a Balki clone, because he's a lot of C-words?

It was funny. You don't think funny is good?

@Prado - Please define "productive start to the game" ...what would you like to see?

How do you think the game gets started without any information?

@balki why not call me out by name? I was the one who said "town morale".

@bozo - what do you think of a lurker policy? Would you lynch moscow with us?

II. Smarminess Is Scum-Indicative

I find these questions to be smarmy. In other words, false earnestness. Ingratiating and insincere. I don't think teacon cares about the answers to these questions. I think he is just asking questions in sort of a welcoming, inclusive, manufactured sort of way.

He is not digging in to solve a puzzle. He has no vector. He is pretending. It is a false engagement designed to blend in and ingratiate himself to others, while showing no interest in answers or progress towards any goal other than to blend.

III. Conclusion

Teacon is being smarmy because he is scum.

Ok, but teacon was like that all last game, it tipped xorxes off, and he was wrong, this is just how teacon plays, find something better

[bozotheclown]

@connorcompton: Can you give me examples of my comments that were useless?

[Durga]

Bozos argument against Chippe is flawed and he isn't talking about anything else. I'd much rather he went than Flav

##vote Bozo

this is a bad vote imo.

why would you rather he go for flav? how is his argument on chippe flawed? he thinks chippe claimed "vt" for nefarious reasons, and he very much might be right about it. i agree with bozo that it's weird chippe just totally dropped it after the night was over... maybe a special someone told him to stop? just a thought but i certainly don't think bozo's argument is flawed enough to warrant this vote.

[ChippeRock]

@connorcompton: Can you give me examples of my comments that were useless?

Everything up until that post you just made elaborating on your reasoning behind your vote?

[FlaviusAetius]

POST #781
@teacon
I was playing just fine last game, you and xorxes needed to die to continue the game, both of you came out awful, and it was never going to be solved unless you and him both died. Simple as that.
ALSO you did some pretty scummy stuff too like not providing a list of town when I asked, and coming after me for things vapor said, after you said what he said made him a COP.

[Durga]

@connorcompton: Can you give me examples of my comments that were useless?

Everything up until that post you just made elaborating on your reasoning behind your vote?

is this admission that you're a multi? didn't know you doubled as connorcompton

[Foxcastle]

I think it's bad for people to come ride in after doing nothing all day and vote for someone I think is clearly town based literally only on getting information rooted in a ridiculous theory that was stale 24 hours ago, and not on actually trying to find mafia:



The fact that you don't have any comment on what the information means if he's town is bogus. How are you going to justify voting to hang someone because they're a "valuable flip" if you have no idea what it means if they flip town?

"Doing nothing all day"? Come on. First of all, it's Day 1, so manage your expectations; and second of all, you can critique my play and my actions all you like, but it's silly to say I've done nothing.

If he's town, we done fucked up. But here's a fun fact: town mislynches on Day 1 a lot, so yeah, I'm just going for what I think is the best chance. If you've got a better, more ironclad case, go ahead and push it.

You really think it's the best chance that Flavius is non-Secretary mafia, the Secretary is experienced mafia and told Flavius that Balki was good, and Flavius blabbed it in the thread? That's your idea of "best chance"?

Yep. I think it's interesting enough that I want to see what happens. Do you have a more interesting scenario to tempt me with on someone else?

[bozotheclown]

Here is why ChippeRock should be lynched today. He started the game by copying the VT role PM, presumably from the game setup post, but also said he could verify the real VT role PM matches it exactly since he is a VT, claiming this proves to the other VTs that he is a VT. First, this is obviously not proof that he is a VT since as scum he could verify his role PM matched the role PM in the game setup exactly, and assume all the other role matched as well. Second, if he really is a VT, copying the role PM from the game setup and saying that his real PM is exactly the same is no different than copying his role PM, which is a clear violation of the rules. Since the GM stated he did not break any rules, he must not be a VT, and very likely mafia.

Also, the fact that ChippeRock has stopped talking about this "VT proof" claim after he was no longer the lead wagon makes it look even more like a scum ploy that did not work out as expected.

Hmm, funny, did I only start talking about being a VT when I was the lead wagon?

Good to see that you're still alive though bozo, though it's odd you would wait until the last hour to finally elaborate on your motives - coincidentally, you stopped lurking when you are one of the lead wagons (the same coincidence you're accusing me of you hypocrite!).

Idiot, if my role PM and the role PM from the game setup were the same, than there would be no rules violation - because they provide the exact same amount of information to others in the game.

Did you ever think that perhaps I stopped talking about it due to some private communication I received?

Why would the GMs tell you to stop talking about it if you did not break any rules?