Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[thamrick]

@Bo - tell my why I'm wrong

ND flips scum. He flips either Hooker or Stalker. Yav looks like Cop. RHK looks like a liar. We lynch RHK. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK is Stalker, Yav was lying. We lynch Yav next. If RHK isn't Stalker, cool. We've got 2 scum either way.

ND flips VT. Yav was lying. We lynch him. Okay, we don't confirm RHK, but he's looking good. We're in the same boat we were before that we aren't sure about RHK. We either force mafia to NK him or the real Watcher claims and we get another scum. Immediately, we sac a VT for a scum? I'll take it.

ND flips Miller. Yav looks good. Looks dumb for claiming and giving us a Miller, but we lynch RHK. Same as above. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK flips scum, I get that Yav could be aligned with RHK. Same thing though, real Cop counter claims and we get 2 scum.

To me, it's looking like killing ND at least gives us 1 scum and possibly gives us 2.

[rdrivera2005]

##VOTE yavuzovic

Considering that yav has proven his utter and total uselessness in a couple of games straight now, it wouldn't really shock me if he is lying. There is no motivation to claim the way he did as the actual cop, and there is a very minor motivation to claim the way he did as scum, which is to draw out the cop after the watcher has already been exposed. If he's the cop, RHK is lying, and we lynch/shoot him. If he's not the cop, RHK is most definitely not lying, because there's no way that he would put himself out there like that if he weren't the watcher.

ND's alignment doesn't give us much information about these two unless ND flips miller. If he flips scum, it's quite possible that yavuz unwisely bussed, and if he flips town it only confirms what we can otherwise confirm without killing someone who is probably town. Given that I don't believe that yav is the real cop at the moment and that this wasn't a terribly hard conclusion to come to, wasting ND to just open up the can of worms that yavuz already opened himself seems dumb. I don't know why ND thinks it would be optimal to kill him right now in the name of information we don't actually get from his death.

I get the reasoning Bo, but I also feel like our PR's have been pretty exposed today.

That's even more reason not to go after ND. I'm not sure what your motivation for getting ND is unless you're just trying to bus your teammate.

If someone is bussing it's you. How Yav will fake claim Cop and set a scum buddy to be lynched/shoot. The real Cop will counter claim at some point and even if we lynch both, it's a Cop for two scum, I take it any time.

[DemonRHK]

@DemonRHK - I'm not going to shoot anyone today. I think a lynch is better. Shooting and lynching a randomm runs risk of us hitting GS or Nurse, or exposing them.

Why would you lynch a random? This is literally me vs. Yav.

[thamrick]

I forgot to mention the case that ND flips Godfather. Then Yav was lying too. He's scum. And we trollolololololol both of them all the way to the God QT

[Maniac]

COP
You are the COP. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may investigate a player by PM'ing both GMs with the order ##INVESTIGATE <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit.

WATCHER
Each night, you may visit a player's house by PM'ing both GMs with the order ##WATCH <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit.

NURSE
Each night, you may visit a player by PM'ing both GMs with the order ##SAVE <NAME>.

Just seemed strange that COP description doesn't say the same as watcher and Nurse, but does say 'visit' later in description.

##call GM - please confirm that COP visits and watcher is advised of that visit

[Maniac]

@DemonRHK, fair comment. But it still leaves us risking a mislynch tomorrow. I'm not shooting anyone tonight.

[DemonRHK]

@DemonRHK, fair comment. But it still leaves us risking a mislynch tomorrow. I'm not shooting anyone tonight.

That cuts a ton of options off the table. And means barring the flip today, tonight is basically set in stone.

I'd bet best money that Yav is the hooker.

[bo_sox48]

If someone is bussing it's you. How Yav will fake claim Cop and set a scum buddy to be lynched/shoot. The real Cop will counter claim at some point and even if we lynch both, it's a Cop for two scum, I take it any time.

I'm not saying that yav's plan is a good plan but I am trying to figure out what's running through his head because nobody plays without intention, whether scum or not. I'm saying that a) yav is dumb, and whether he's the real cop or not, he just proved that yet again; b) RHK already told us that nobody visited brain when yav said he visited brain, and I believe RHK's claim because unlike yav's claim, it's only mostly terrible, not utterly terrible, not to mention that his crumbs were very good and yav shockingly (/s) hasn't given us any; c) we don't need the real cop to claim to make a determination about yav; and d) if yav is the real cop, he is 100% useless to us at this point as he has already given us all of the information he has and will get, so killing or lynching him is hardly a risk.

@Bo - tell my why I'm wrong

ND flips scum. He flips either Hooker or Stalker. Yav looks like Cop. RHK looks like a liar. We lynch RHK. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK is Stalker, Yav was lying. We lynch Yav next. If RHK isn't Stalker, cool. We've got 2 scum either way.

ND flips VT. Yav was lying. We lynch him. Okay, we don't confirm RHK, but he's looking good. We're in the same boat we were before that we aren't sure about RHK. We either force mafia to NK him or the real Watcher claims and we get another scum. Immediately, we sac a VT for a scum? I'll take it.

ND flips Miller. Yav looks good. Looks dumb for claiming and giving us a Miller, but we lynch RHK. Same as above. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK flips scum, I get that Yav could be aligned with RHK. Same thing though, real Cop counter claims and we get 2 scum.

To me, it's looking like killing ND at least gives us 1 scum and possibly gives us 2.

a) If ND flips scum, yav might have bussed him to try and lend credence to his claim. Likely or smart? No. Do you think yav is smart, though? Yav is useless, as I just made clear, or at least no more useful than ND at this point.

Do you think ND will flip scum, irregardless of yav's claim? I had him as a townread for a very good reason. Do you remember that discussion?

b) We definitely confirm RHK if we prove that yav was lying, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why would he come out and reiterate that nobody visited brain and challenge the real cop if he's scum? Why would he put himself out there like that? Reread how he did it, too. He 100% knew what to do right away. He didn't forget the details of his claim or hesitate even for a moment because it's not fake.

c) ND flipping miller is a 1-in-many chance and still doesn't conclusively clear either yav or RHK. We're still left with the question of RHK and yav if ND flips miller because of the stalker, assuming that the stalker can sniff out a miller.

Killing ND gives us ND and whatever role he flips. It seems clear that he isn't a PR, so it's not devastating if he's a VT. ND being town clears RHK and implicates yav. ND being miller does not give us either RHK or yav, and we're still forced to choose between them. ND being scum makes yav look better than RHK, but not infallibly so and we're still forced to choose between them.

Yav has already turned himself into nothing but deadweight, no more than any VT here, by claiming. He is as useless as anyone. If he flips cop, we get RHK in a 1-to-1 tradeoff, plus we have ND, so it is more than likely a 2-to-1 tradeoff. If he flips scum, which he very well should, we get him, 1-to-0, and can go from there. We don't have to flip ND at all to solve this one. It is better to flip yav.

[reedeer1]

I think ND is correct. We lynch or shoot him today, and use that information tomorrow. We need to stop pulling PR's out, real or fake PR's we seem to be as a group pulling VT claims, and PR claims, something we cant afford.

##Vote ND

I would hammer, but we might learn some by talking more. Especially the part where the stalker finds out that ND is miller, to try to clear scum Yuav, so waiting on the GM to respond to that.

[bo_sox48]

Please read what I said before you vomit all over the page, reedeer.

[rdrivera2005]

If someone is bussing it's you. How Yav will fake claim Cop and set a scum buddy to be lynched/shoot. The real Cop will counter claim at some point and even if we lynch both, it's a Cop for two scum, I take it any time.

I'm not saying that yav's plan is a good plan but I am trying to figure out what's running through his head because nobody plays without intention, whether scum or not. I'm saying that a) yav is dumb, and whether he's the real cop or not, he just proved that yet again; b) RHK already told us that nobody visited brain when yav said he visited brain, and I believe RHK's claim because unlike yav's claim, it's only mostly terrible, not utterly terrible, not to mention that his crumbs were very good and yav shockingly (/s) hasn't given us any; c) we don't need the real cop to claim to make a determination about yav; and d) if yav is the real cop, he is 100% useless to us at this point as he has already given us all of the information he has and will get, so killing or lynching him is hardly a risk.

@Bo - tell my why I'm wrong

ND flips scum. He flips either Hooker or Stalker. Yav looks like Cop. RHK looks like a liar. We lynch RHK. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK is Stalker, Yav was lying. We lynch Yav next. If RHK isn't Stalker, cool. We've got 2 scum either way.

ND flips VT. Yav was lying. We lynch him. Okay, we don't confirm RHK, but he's looking good. We're in the same boat we were before that we aren't sure about RHK. We either force mafia to NK him or the real Watcher claims and we get another scum. Immediately, we sac a VT for a scum? I'll take it.

ND flips Miller. Yav looks good. Looks dumb for claiming and giving us a Miller, but we lynch RHK. Same as above. Either RHK flips Stalker or he doesn't. If RHK flips scum, I get that Yav could be aligned with RHK. Same thing though, real Cop counter claims and we get 2 scum.

To me, it's looking like killing ND at least gives us 1 scum and possibly gives us 2.

a) If ND flips scum, yav might have bussed him to try and lend credence to his claim. Likely or smart? No. Do you think yav is smart, though? Yav is useless, as I just made clear, or at least no more useful than ND at this point.

Do you think ND will flip scum, irregardless of yav's claim? I had him as a townread for a very good reason. Do you remember that discussion?

b) We definitely confirm RHK if we prove that yav was lying, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why would he come out and reiterate that nobody visited brain and challenge the real cop if he's scum? Why would he put himself out there like that? Reread how he did it, too. He 100% knew what to do right away. He didn't forget the details of his claim or hesitate even for a moment because it's not fake.

c) ND flipping miller is a 1-in-many chance and still doesn't conclusively clear either yav or RHK. We're still left with the question of RHK and yav if ND flips miller because of the stalker, assuming that the stalker can sniff out a miller.

Killing ND gives us ND and whatever role he flips. It seems clear that he isn't a PR, so it's not devastating if he's a VT. ND being town clears RHK and implicates yav. ND being miller does not give us either RHK or yav, and we're still forced to choose between them. ND being scum makes yav look better than RHK, but not infallibly so and we're still forced to choose between them.

Yav has already turned himself into nothing but deadweight, no more than any VT here, by claiming. He is as useless as anyone. If he flips cop, we get RHK in a 1-to-1 tradeoff, plus we have ND, so it is more than likely a 2-to-1 tradeoff. If he flips scum, which he very well should, we get him, 1-to-0, and can go from there. We don't have to flip ND at all to solve this one. It is better to flip yav.

Bo, I disagree that if Yav is Coo he is a dead weight. With Watcher and Nurse around scum will need to take a high risk to kill or roleblock him. But let's wait for the GN answers on both questions (cop visit or not and Stalker/Miller interaction) before a final decision. For now ##vote ND

[thamrick]

@DemonRHK, fair comment. But it still leaves us risking a mislynch tomorrow. I'm not shooting anyone tonight.

@Maniac - I really don't understand. Can you analyze my case breakdown above and tell me why shooting ND isn't a good play?

Either way I don't think we want to risk losing the Cop or the Watcher or force the real one if either is faking to hard CC. So are you advocating we lynch ND? If so, what's the best case here?

ND flips hooker? Cool. That lets our PR's breathe a sigh of relief. Yav is looking good. Okay, scum get a NK here. We've got to decide who to save, who to watch, who to investigate, who to gun while hoping that scum don't outguess us. We're still in good shape no matter what happens, but it's possible we lose a PR.

ND flips stalker? Worse case, but still great. We get a scum out. We have to go through the same guessing game again, but knowing that scum get a RB too.

Either way of these, we lynch RHK the next day (assuming he's not NK'd. If he is, we're at risk of a mislynch the next day anyways). He flips Stalker, we know Yav was lying, but we can't lynch him til the next day. That's 3 days worth of informationless lynches (assuming no gunshot). If he flips scum, cool. We're down to 1. It's still 2 days of informationless lynches.

ND flips miller? Ouch. Yav still probably telling the truth. We lynch RHK (who we're already uncertain of anyways). We're in the same boat.

ND flips VT. Yav lying. We lynch Yav the next day, but they get another night of having all 3 of them and both scum powers.


@Bo - if you reread Yav, he seemed to hint at being cop. I'm not saying that makes his claim irrefutable.

I disagree about the Cop being useless and thus disposable. At worst, we force scum to NK him, saving our outed PR or Townclear for another night. At best, they decide it's not worth killing him if he's being watched or possibly saved and he gets another scan off.

You seem to be approaching this like a scum that is upset his partners are morons but doesn't want to give up so easily.

I still don't see why flipping ND right now doesn't make the most sense.

to respond to your points,
a) I agree it's a possibility that Yav is bussing ND. If we shoot ND and he flips scum, we lynch RHK. He's Stalker and we know he's telling the truth so we lynch/shoot Yav tomorrow. We rejoice that his stupidity got us 2 scum. If RHK doesn't flip Stalker, but he flips town, well, RHK sucks. Yav looks good and it's possible he's still town. Worst case scenario that forces real Cop to CC and we still get 2 scum. We laugh at RHK for being a moron and regrettably have to out our Cop, but there's only 1 scum left and we'd have Watcher too so.... If RHK flips scum. Great! We've got 2 scum still!! If Yav was bussing, Cop still CC's and we die laughing our way to a town win.

b) I agree. If Yav is lying. RHK looks real good. Even if he happens to also be lying, we figure it out by real Watcher CC'ing and we've got 2 scum gone.

c) ND flipping Miller is worst case. Yav's a moron for claiming. We lynch RHK because he probably lied about Watching Brain. If he flips scum, cool. It's unfortunate the Yav outed himself but we can't change that. He flips town, Yav gets the string for lying about investigating Brain. We've traded our outed Watcher for a scum. Oh well.

Spell out your fears for shooting ND right now.

[thamrick]

To put all the recent call gms in one place:

##CALL GM - would a Stalker scan reveal that a player is the Miller?

##CALL GM - Is the vest revealed upon death?

##CALL GM - please confirm that if COP visits watcher's target that watcher is advised of that visit

[yavuzovic]

I'm in doubt about me now ,
My suspicions will be nothing if ND is Miller and his soul will turn back to make me met with "ND's wrath".
If I'm so stupid to not know what does report say, you will lynch me.
I hope the other Miller is Foxcastle or Balki or Mean or rdrivera or someone else, but not ND.

[Maniac]

@thamrick. You may be right. I'm still concerned there could be a simple explanation. What if GMs didn't notify watcher of COp 'visit'? Then Yav and Demon could be telling the truth so I'd sooner lynch ND and go out for the night. Rather than watch the game waiting for that response.

[thamrick]

TL;DR - spell out a case for me where one of RHK/Yav isn't either (a) a MORON TOWNIE and lying about being a PR or (b) a mafia

If you agree that it's more likely b, then tell me why shooting ND doesn't at the very least give us 1 scum and at best give us 2 of the remaining 3 scum.

EDIT - @Maniac - yes. I agree. Waiting for GM answers and going through all cases to make sure we didn't miss anything is the right thing to do. That's what I'm trying to do.

@Yav - what are you doubting now?

[bozotheclown]

In the cop description it does say "Your target will not be aware of your visit", so it is called a visit. However, there is no COP/WATCHER combination under role interactions, so we need to wait until we here a GM answer before deciding what to do.

[Hellenic Riot]

##GM Notes:

1) The Stalker can indeed find a Miller

2) The vest is not revealed upon death, simply because the owner cannot die until the vest has first been destroyed. Should, by some circumstance, the vestholder be killed in two different ways in one night, then, and only then, would the vestholder die that turn. However, there will be an alert when the vest is broken, and that would still go off in that scenario.

3) The Cop visit does appear on Watcher reports, yes.

[DemonRHK]

I'm in doubt about me now ,
My suspicions will be nothing if ND is Miller and his soul will turn back to make me met with "ND's wrath".
If I'm so stupid to not know what does report say, you will lynch me.
I hope the other Miller is Foxcastle or Balki or Mean or rdrivera or someone else, but not ND.

Come ON. He's not even going to acknowledge I caught him red handed?

[Foxcastle]

##CALL GM: does the vest protect against a lynch?