Fuck Reform, Fuck Farage

[Octavious]

For those of you unsure what British pub conservations about billiards refers to, it's this. The game of kings

[Jamiet99uk]

Screenshot_20250520_095711_com_hihonor_filemanager_FileViewerAnimationActivity.jpg

For those of you unsure what British pub conservations about billiards refers to, it's this. The game of kings

Wow, you don't see many of those anymore.

[Jamiet99uk]

What's to discuss? You spoke to two people in a pub with a shaky grasp of the figures. I do not believe that their views are representative, and I rather suspect that if they had a chance to think about the numbers their views on legal immigration would change.

Speaking to actual Reform voters about why they support Reform is illuminating. What better evidence than the qualitative evidence of the man on the street? (Or in the pub, as in this case). I expect that a lot of Reform voters have a shaky grasp on the facts, that part was not a surprise.

Their greatest source of concern is illegal migration, black men in small boats whose motives they suspect.

More importantly, my last non-beer or billiards related conversation with strangers in a pub was about the viability of using modified submarines for space exploration. You should really branch out on your topics. You're in severe danger of putting yourself in a position where you're duty bound to punch someone...

I did not bring up the topic. I generally avoid talking about politics in the pub as it leads to arguments. I will engage in the discussion if someone else seeks to engage in such discussion, however.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

It's quite unlikely that either of your anecdotal experiences happen to capture the views of the typical Reform voter.

Thankfully, that's what polls are for: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49887-what-do-reform-uk-voters-believe

Unsurprisingly, the typical Reform voter cares quite a bit about channel crossers (legal or not) and the perceived watering down of "British" values (defined, it seems, in opposition to multiculturalism).

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

https://www.britishfuture.org/reform-voters-are-outliers-on-immigration-they-think-differently-to-the-majority-of-the-public/

As a follow up, this poll more clearly makes the legal/illegal distinction. It corresponds with the YouGov results above - the typical Reform voter is clearly opposed to both legal and illegal immigration. A substantial minority of Reform voters (39%) mistakenly believe that over half of the UK's immigrants are asylum seekers (the real share is only ~7-11% are, depending how you class folks invited from Ukraine, Afghanistan, and Hong Kong).

[Jamiet99uk]

It's quite unlikely that either of your anecdotal experiences happen to capture the views of the typical Reform voter.

Thankfully, that's what polls are for: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49887-what-do-reform-uk-voters-believe

Unsurprisingly, the typical Reform voter cares quite a bit about channel crossers (legal or not) and the perceived watering down of "British" values (defined, it seems, in opposition to multiculturalism).

This is interesting because the second strongest "belief" in that survey was this one:

"Migrants coming to the United Kingdom across the English Channel should all be immediately removed from the United Kingdom and prevented from ever returning"

This directly calls out to the image of people arriving by boat (as opposed to, say, an Indian doctor arriving by aeroplane to work in an NHS hospital); it appeals to the "stop the boats" rhetoric which chimes with what Mr. Reform in the pub was saying, as I read it.

I am slightly surprised to notice that the survey makes no distinction between legal migration, on the one hand, and illegal migration, on the other. Nor does it make any distinction between the planned-for import of foreign workers on the one hand, and the arrival of asylum seekers (bogus or valid) on the other.

In other words the survey is not very nuanced when it comes to the issues of immigration we have been debating in this thread.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I'd say the two linked polls above mostly support your view Jamie. The typical Reform voter is more misinformed about the quantity of asylum seekers than the average Brit, Reform voters are clearly very motivated by their opposition to boat-crossing migrants, and additionally (somewhat to Oct's point) Reform voters are clearly opposed to the current pace and make-up of immigration (legal and illegal).

[Jamiet99uk]

What really makes me roll my eyes is where the polling indicates significant support, among Reform voters, for these positions:

"Rich people in the UK are able to get around the law or get off more easily than poorer people"

"Big businesses in the UK take advantage of ordinary people"

"Ordinary working people do not get their fair share of the nation's wealth"

"Rich people in the UK should be taxed more than average earners"

I find it hard to understand how someone holding the above positions could then happily walk into the polling booth and vote for a party headed by:

Nigel Farage, multi-millionaire ex-stockbroker;
Richard Tice, multi-millionaire landowner and real estate agent;
Zia Yusuf, multi-millionaire former Goldman Sachs executive.

Why do they think these people have any interest whatsoever in improving the lot of the ordinary working person??

Fucking idiocy.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

This seems to be a common problem across western democracies.

Both the left and the right are increasingly concerned about "elites", income inequality, and corporate power.

The left-wing populist solutions for these problems are typically put forward by career politicians who have never even been close to power, triggering reasonable skepticism about their ability to deliver on an ambitious reform agenda. This approach is off putting for those who are simultaneously concerned about corporate/elite power and state incompetence.

The right-wing version populist response is driven forward by "elites" themselves, ostensibly because they know best how to dismantle the system that unfairly perpetuates their own privilege—which relies on voters choosing to ignore the obvious incentive these leaders have have to maintain their own affluence and power. These leaders typically make the case that previous success in business qualifies them to lead a massive and complex policy change—even though its far from obvious that such skills are transferable.