M1036 Flipless Coven Hunt I Game Thread

[miminena]

I don't ENTIRELY agree with that as a blanket statement, but yes, in a game where roles give zero alignment information, hiding your role from the wolfpack (t least at the BEGINNING) is more important than usual. Witches will know which roles are village aligned and it allows them to plan optimally, but doesn't clear you to fellow villagers. We can't even accept what you said as factual when you die unless you die at night--which PROBABLY but not DEFINITELY means you a villager or unless a village aligned Gravedigger gets your reveal.

It's a great game build for finding witches by trying to manipulate vs "solve by power and follow the information roles" but the rate at which information gets out is important. There is no angel, for example, until a village player dies. Once we know definitively that has happened, we can play a bit more openly.

i feel like hiding information and lying are two different things though. like i get why role info should be kept secret but i don't see why we should actively be deceptive like yavuz suggested

Agreed. I don’t get the point with intentionally lying.

But I also don’t feel like a mass claim feels like a good idea right now.

yeah we prob shouldn't mass claim. whether a few roles should individually claim idk, but since they can being either alignment i would assume not, at least not yet

[miminena]

##vote Diploma Cyan Dwarf Are

dw's brazenness here feels a bit like he's trying to emulate his town play. like he does have the whole reaction test thing but it doesn't really feel like he's going anywhere with it; in his town games that i've experienced he has an obvious direction to his tunnels and sticks with them, but in his scum game he kind of just moved around before settling on someone to go after. overall i just don't think he's being genuine in his posts abt jamie but idk

I will never see DiplomacyAndWarfare’s name the same again!!!!

ehehehe >:3

[GlitterBomb]

Also, I don’t like the idea of a mass claim especially because of the sniper role. Isn’t that just us offering up the sniper an easier accurate kill attempt? They could essentially make their kill based on a claim they believed the most and kill us….right? I get that roles aren’t AI but I feel like a mass claim right now would be a mistake.

[BunnyGo]

Also, I don’t like the idea of a mass claim especially because of the sniper role. Isn’t that just us offering up the sniper an easier accurate kill attempt? They could essentially make their kill based on a claim they believed the most and kill us….right? I get that roles aren’t AI but I feel like a mass claim right now would be a mistake.

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

[BunnyGo]

Also, I don’t like the idea of a mass claim especially because of the sniper role. Isn’t that just us offering up the sniper an easier accurate kill attempt? They could essentially make their kill based on a claim they believed the most and kill us….right? I get that roles aren’t AI but I feel like a mass claim right now would be a mistake.

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

[GlitterBomb]

Also, I don’t like the idea of a mass claim especially because of the sniper role. Isn’t that just us offering up the sniper an easier accurate kill attempt? They could essentially make their kill based on a claim they believed the most and kill us….right? I get that roles aren’t AI but I feel like a mass claim right now would be a mistake.

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

I am 100% confused by the above statement.

[miminena]

Also, I don’t like the idea of a mass claim especially because of the sniper role. Isn’t that just us offering up the sniper an easier accurate kill attempt? They could essentially make their kill based on a claim they believed the most and kill us….right? I get that roles aren’t AI but I feel like a mass claim right now would be a mistake.

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

[BunnyGo]

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

I am 100% confused by the above statement.

That’s fair. I’m communicating too briefly.

There are two roles that can kill all on their own (sniper and judge). IF (big if, but is 7-3 odds for any town who isn’t that role) the sniper is town, we should WANT their shot to be true. I WANT the sniper (if their town) to get off a shot that hits, because it’s a kill without scum manipulation or interference.

I WANT every day to be decided by a town judge (assuming the judge is town) because then a town player gets complete control of the daykill without scum interference.

Especially as this is largely no flip, especially early, taking kill control from scum seems valuable.

[BunnyGo]

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

Yup. That’s reasonable and why I’m not pushing harder for it.

[BunnyGo]

You don’t want a town sniper to have a guaranteed vigilante shot?

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

The mice are interesting…

They already know each other.

And there’s a 50%+ chance the scum know them already.

[BunnyGo]

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

The mice are interesting…

They already know each other.

And there’s a 50%+ chance the scum know them already.

Amusingly, one mouse could out all of them.

I don’t know if this is good or bad.

[miminena]

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

The mice are interesting…

They already know each other.

And there’s a 50%+ chance the scum know them already.

hmm this is a good point

if sniper is town and at least one of the mice is scum then they can safely hit a shot if they suspect the scum mouse

if sniper is scum and at least one mouse is scum then no new information is gained for the scumteam but the town gets info which is always good

if sniper is town and the mice are pure then the scum have help narrowing down more useful roles which might be annoying

if sniper is scum and the mice are pure then it's the same situation but scum have extra kp

so iiuc if there is scum in the mice it's always good for them to claim but if there isn't it's best for them to stay silent

[BunnyGo]

which is why individual claims might be useful for some roles, but massclaiming would give the 30% chance scum sniper a free shot on smth like the gravedigger. and 30% is high enough that i wouldn't risk the massclaim

The mice are interesting…

They already know each other.

And there’s a 50%+ chance the scum know them already.

hmm this is a good point

if sniper is town and at least one of the mice is scum then they can safely hit a shot if they suspect the scum mouse

if sniper is scum and at least one mouse is scum then no new information is gained for the scumteam but the town gets info which is always good

if sniper is town and the mice are pure then the scum have help narrowing down more useful roles which might be annoying

if sniper is scum and the mice are pure then it's the same situation but scum have extra kp

so iiuc if there is scum in the mice it's always good for them to claim but if there isn't it's best for them to stay silent

That sounds correct, just from the principle:

If there’s a scum mouse, then scum already know and town don’t.

If the mice are pure then scum don’t know something.


So claiming or not depends on that.

I would suggest town mice think hard about their reads on the other mice.

Because while the odds in a vacuum are over 50% that one (or both) of the other two mice are scum, the odds don’t mean as much as your reads.

[BunnyGo]

Also, would only claim during a day phase.

[GlitterBomb]

And it’s 70% odds to any non-sniper town that the sniper is town.

I am 100% confused by the above statement.

That’s fair. I’m communicating too briefly.

There are two roles that can kill all on their own (sniper and judge). IF (big if, but is 7-3 odds for any town who isn’t that role) the sniper is town, we should WANT their shot to be true. I WANT the sniper (if their town) to get off a shot that hits, because it’s a kill without scum manipulation or interference.

I WANT every day to be decided by a town judge (assuming the judge is town) because then a town player gets complete control of the daykill without scum interference.

Especially as this is largely no flip, especially early, taking kill control from scum seems valuable.

Ok that seems to be reasonable. But it’s also a LOT of assuming. And playing odds. But I guess then by saying town controlling the kills is ideal you’re saying self-sacrifice by claiming? And again, that’s assuming that at least one of the two killers and/or judge are town. If by some horrible luck several of those big roles are scum, claiming would backfire quickly, no?

[brainbomb]

Vote Tally 1.2

In the library was an old french press, seldom used. Collecting dust.

JustAGuyNamedWill (2) Bonatogether BunnyGo
DiplomacyandWarfare (2) Jamiet99uk miminena
BunnyGo (1) yavuzovic
Jamiet99uk (1) DiplomacyandWarfare
yavuzovic (1) ButterscotchReader
Bonatogether (1) damo666

Non-votes
Chomps
GlitterBomb
JustAGuyNamedWill

Much like the french press, some folks have not used their vote.
And no one was scheduled to be burned alive

[BunnyGo]

Also, would only claim during a day phase.

And an odd day phase gets the gravedigger more intel too.

[BunnyGo]

I am 100% confused by the above statement.

That’s fair. I’m communicating too briefly.

There are two roles that can kill all on their own (sniper and judge). IF (big if, but is 7-3 odds for any town who isn’t that role) the sniper is town, we should WANT their shot to be true. I WANT the sniper (if their town) to get off a shot that hits, because it’s a kill without scum manipulation or interference.

I WANT every day to be decided by a town judge (assuming the judge is town) because then a town player gets complete control of the daykill without scum interference.

Especially as this is largely no flip, especially early, taking kill control from scum seems valuable.

Ok that seems to be reasonable. But it’s also a LOT of assuming. And playing odds. But I guess then by saying town controlling the kills is ideal you’re saying self-sacrifice by claiming? And again, that’s assuming that at least one of the two killers and/or judge are town. If by some horrible luck several of those big roles are scum, claiming would backfire quickly, no?

I mean…probably, yeah. Giving scum a free shot at a strong power is bad.

[miminena]

i love that both rabbits are on the extremes of post count :3

[ButterscotchReader]

two things:
1. i haven't really paid much attention to the thread yet outside of that one interaction with will

2. i still don't get why lying is necessary here? you seem to get it so pls explain

I don't ENTIRELY agree with that as a blanket statement, but yes, in a game where roles give zero alignment information, hiding your role from the wolfpack (t least at the BEGINNING) is more important than usual. Witches will know which roles are village aligned and it allows them to plan optimally, but doesn't clear you to fellow villagers. We can't even accept what you said as factual when you die unless you die at night--which PROBABLY but not DEFINITELY means you a villager or unless a village aligned Gravedigger gets your reveal.

It's a great game build for finding witches by trying to manipulate vs "solve by power and follow the information roles" but the rate at which information gets out is important. There is no angel, for example, until a village player dies. Once we know definitively that has happened, we can play a bit more openly.

i feel like hiding information and lying are two different things though. like i get why role info should be kept secret but i don't see why we should actively be deceptive like yavuz suggested

Which is partly why I said I didn't entirely agree, but I do think that judicious villager lying can sometimes play a role in witch hunt because we have to investigate "harder" because we have fewer "objective" sources of information.