Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[bo_sox48]

Okay, call me when you're making sense again. Baii

[brainbomb]

Ey Tom

Tom Bombadil
Night-1 07:55
page 33 brain: I don't really see redeer as scummy, and I wonder if English is his first language. The post about voting Jamie makes sense to me - he was unsure of each wagon and picked the one where his strongest townread(s) was/were voting.

The second post about Mean playing better is certainly strange, though I don't feel alignment indicative. From looking at his points he seems rather timid - not likely to bus a scumbuddy at a pivotal point, so I view him likely town because of his vote.

So pretty sure the following are town:

snowy
ND
brain
rdrivera
redee​r.


Tom Bombadil

Night-1 07:17
page 33 What is insincere about it brain? He honestly stated that he was unsure on the top wagons and then went with the one that his highest townread was voting. Seems sincere to me - if a little vague, but that just makes my townread of reedeer stronger. His reasoning was vague, which gave him a way to justify any vote - and he voted for scum.

He seems timid, not the type of player to bus like that unless he was forced to because his reads backed him into a corner, which was clearly not the case.

Probable town:

reedeer
snowy
brain
rdrivera
​ND

Did you move snowy because he was the nk?
Was it too obvious putting him highest?


Tom Slipped last night.

Exhibit A

[brainbomb]

Main Argument:

Why is tom reposting the reads?
Why are they shuffled?
Why is reedeers position changed ahead of Snowys in that span of time?

[thamrick]

I find it weird. I don't know that it means Tom is scum.

Also, no one else is claiming roleblock? That has to mean Balki was RB'd by both hooker and nurse right? Besides your mafia QT troll post, there's no way in hell mafia would roleblock the person they were NK'ing. Cop, watcher, nurse, oracle wouldn't matter. Gunsmith is the only possible PR role they could RB while simultaneously NK'ing and 1) how would they be sure Snowy was GS and 2) why would they even do that anyways?

If no one else claims RB, Balki is pretty much townclear, right?

[brainbomb]

Mafia can holster Roleblock.

Also you get two seperate messages. Balki indicated only 1 message.

Two roleblocks are two seperate actions. Youd get two notices

[DemonRHK]

So for now I am going to focus my efforts on Jamie's townreads from P25.
They are:

Rdrivera
Mean
DemonRHK
tham
BB

His townreads on P15 were Rd, Mean, and tham.

Voting:
Rd - Ended on Jamie, 8th out of 9 on, 1 from EoD
Mean - Rode Balki end to end
Me - Ended on Jamie, 3rd out of 9 on, 28 from EoD
tham - Ended on ND, 14 from EoD
BB - Ended on Jamie, 2nd out of 9 on (very short jump off), 14 from EoD

Jamie interactions:
Rd - Jamie was a bit sus during the questioning of Yavu, becuase Yavu called out Rd to 'save us'.

Mean - Deflected off of Rj onto Mean when people started questioning the hard defense of her. She defended him near end of day, deflecting more toward balki.

Me -Almost nothing. I townread him at first, then lost it on his issues with BB, and he townread me.

tham - Asked for tham's reads on BB and ND, and tham spent most of the last half of D1 scumreading jamie, but never voted him.

BB - As I've pointed out before, Jamie and BB have an interesting and noticable dynamic. Brain is the loose cannon, while Jamie is the grizzled serious one. (Moment of lightheartedness here: The two of them are are a script away from a cop buddy movie blockbuster), however that normal interaction was gone, Jamie was much less into BB, in a way. I noted it before, he wasn't acting annoyed, more angry that normal at brain.

---

Takeaways: I feel like there is scum there, and my first thought is tham for finger-wagging at him but voting ND, or for Mean's deflection onto balki. Rd has kinda just lurked through, I don't see any real connection there on a reread.

Anyone else maybe want to take a look or have input on Jamie's townreads today?

[thamrick]

Why in the world would mafia holster roleblock?

##CALL GM - can you verify that if someone was visited by the Nurse and the Hooker they would receive two separate PMs?

[VashtaNeurotic]

Vash - So many people want to shoot him and hes still trying to figure out what is going on. I have a feeling that Jamie voted vash and stayed on him not because it was scum on scum; but because vash was voting reedeer.

Uh bb, Jamie voted me far before I voted reedeer.

[MeanLaQueefa]

Ok, reread pretty much everyone. I'm heading to bed, will answer any questions, accusations and/or diatribes when I get off work tomorrow.

demonRHK: Slight Town. I was reading him as full town for most of the game, he seems genuine a lot, but in the last while his logic has been off, and I find that disconcerting. He’s pushing me a lot, and some of it I understand could be coming from a town perspective, like the perceived connection between me and rj, but a lot of it I can’t. I don’t know how he sees me, rj, and Jamie as a scum team when you look at how Jamie jumped in to rj defending me and pushed back on rj for doing it, it doesn’t add up, jamie would have stayed far away from that mess if we all three were mafia. He also seemed so sure SuperSteve was mafia, even after it became apparent he would likely be mod killed, and I find that an odd thing for mafia to do.

foxcastle: Slight Town. The way he and Jamie went through the lurkers day 1 together seemed too risky to do if they were both scum, I think one would have backed out, but both followed the other at least once.

ND: Slight Town. He scum read snowy throughout the game, and that’s an odd thing to do if you’re planning on killing him at night when you’re the only person who has voted for him, and he didn’t pose much of a threat that warranted mafia targeting him (unless they suspected he was a PR). Killing snowy may even have been a mafia move to throw shade on ND for scum reading him consistently. I also think his erratic behavior day 1 would be too dangerous to do if he was scum.

bozotheclown: Null. His votes for reedeer and ND day one seem genuine to me, but he hasn’t posted enough for me to get a real read on him.

Ezio: Null. Barely posted, and hasn’t since day 1. I’m iffy on him, on one hand, he seems like he doesn’t care, which leans town to me, on the other, he isn’t helping town by lurking and making unsubstantiated statements when he does post like “demon is best lynch” with no reasoning.

rdrivera2005: town. He has consistently oozed towniness in my eyes, and I can pretty much always understand where he’s coming from when he posts, which isn’t as much as I’d like, but whatever. His confusion seems genuine, especially at me and balki. He’s pointed out several things that I feel like only a town would, such as at EoD when he said to keep our head in the game after we lynched one scum.

yavuzovic: Slight Town. I find his play genuine, though erratic. He is really good at seeming confused and like he doesn't know what's happening if he is mafia.

rjmcf: Town. I find it really hard to see him as mafia given how hard he defended me. I get why you all might think we’re a scum team, but I know we’re not a team, and that makes it a strange tactic to use if he is mafia. He also scumread snowy in his reads at the end of night, which is a really odd thing to do if he knew he was going to die. I wouldn’t peg him as a player who’d double bluff like that, and it could easily backfire with the scrutiny he’s had.

balki bartokomous: Mafia. I don’t think I need to reiterate the reasons.

reedeer1: Town. Like Rdrivera, he oozes towniness to me. His rainbow atrocity read list where he placed maniac at the top looks a lot less scummy now that we know maniac is town. He backed off rd as his top scumread without reason, which is odd for scum to do, they know how that looks. He seems like just a towny chilling and making an insight here or there. He seems a bit timid, and I can buy him voting for Jamie because he saw people he thought were town doing so.

brainbomb: Town. I don’t like what he is doing with his PR, but I still think he must be town the way he is trying to solve the game, and more than anyone probably deserves the credit for catching Jamie.

VashtaNeurotic: Mafia. Vash’s thinking on not giving out guns and not shooting anyone seems like someone maybe trying to hard to be townie. But the real thing that makes me think this is Vash also what he signaled of rjm’s post about his reads last night:

“snowy...as scum. Yeah, doubt that. Scum don't tie the vote by voting FOR their teammate.”

Vash said this 5 minutes before end of night, and had never mentioned snowy or rj before then. I feel like this reeks of a scum knowing who is about to die, trying to get town credit for defending them and setting up a really easy mislynch for the next day at the same time.

Then there’s brainbomb’s catching Jamie as mafia for voting for vash, which brainomb says he always does with his seldom posting teammates. Although I’m just trusting brain on this point.

Tom Bombadil: Slight Scum. I’ve noticed that he and balki tend to work towards the same goal. He blatantly sheeped on to me after balki voted for me today. Balki pushed demon with questions at the beginning of the game right after tom voted for him. I could see balki being cautious and not voting for demon because it would be too obvious that they were playing together. Now that balki seems to be more defensible to a lot of folks (not me), tom can more easily back him up. This could be too close for them to be working together honestly, but I could see it.

Maniac: Town, simple, obvious thanks to Snowy.

dargorygel: Slight Scum. His post about me changing demeanor after rj talked about me doesn’t make sense. I started this game saying I was ready to rock shit, and I wasn’t kidding. I also promised to shoot brain in the face and started pushing balki before rj said anything about me, so I was already putting myself out there, nothing changed. Then he says I was quiet during the night, which I don’t think I was, but his very soft push on me hinged on my changing demeanor from quiet to loud to quiet again, and I think I’ve been constant throughout, both in my demeanor and pushing balki. I could also buy him and balki’s little spats as mafia on mafia. He was also the first person who asked me about my mafia experience, and so far only him, balki and reeder have cared about it, with balki and dar asking much more thoroughly. I think mafia would care much more about my experience level than town would.

thamrick – Slight Scum. An hour before EoD, he says he can get on board with voting Jamie, then thirty minutes before end of day puts a slight scum read on him, giving the same read to ND, but with 14 minutes to end of day, he seems to reluctantly vote for ND, saying “Of the lead wagons, ND is the one I'm most comfortable with.” Even though he stated earlier that he “could get behind a jamie wagon.” He also makes a joke at the beginning of the thread about receiving a PM telling him to shoot Jamie. It is innocuous, but I’m triggered by seeing many a mafia make little jokes with each other as the game begins because its so funny that they have a secret no one else knows. Of my slight scum reads, this one is the most likely to be nothing, but I still feel odd about him.

bo_sox48 – Slight Town. I didn’t care much for his d1, especially his vote on brainbomb, but he seems very on point day 2, and I believe his reasoning, though I only agree with about half of his reads. Want to see more of him around and not sick.

[yavuzovic]

Any chance Maniac can be Godfather?
Or is he exactly Vanilla Townie?

[bozotheclown]

I do not understand why Vashta, RHK, and MLQ think we should be trying to verify brain’s gunsmith claim. Knowing whether or not brain is the real gunsmith only helps the mafia. Vashta and MLQ in particular want to suppress gun claims in order to out the gunsmith. I am going to put my vote on Vashta for this and a couple of other reasons:
1. Vashta’s voting D1 EOD looks like he could have been trying to protect Jamie
2. brain’s point about Jamie potentially bussing Vashta D1
3. snowy called for Vashta’s lynch D2

##VOTE VashtaNeurotic

[yavuzovic]

Any chance Maniac can be Godfather?
Or is he exactly Vanilla Townie?

##CALL GM

[rdrivera2005]

@Brain - I owe you an indication, I already said I was busy and know I am lurking more then I should, but can't really do much about it. My wife have to get back to work and I am with my daughter at the beach, so I am offline most of the day. It should get better at Friday if I am still alive.
I still think you are town as your claim don't make sense as scum but you are starting to play as a loose cannon.

This said, I have done a full reread on Vash, that seems scummy to me for his interaction with Jamiet and honestly it didn't give me a solid reason to vote him.

I will get back to my D1 vote, ##vote Ezio get out and play mate.

[Rjmcf]

I'm not convinced ND is scum? The argument seems to be that ND was convinced that a low posting Snowy was scum. Based on what he was saying about Snowy ("he posts on par with Brainbomb"), that's a fair assumption on ND's part no?

When Snowy was cleared his only response was "I was wrong about you". As a scum player whose wagon has just been cleared, wouldn't you expect him to find someone else to push? Who is ND working with? The only other people who find Snowy suspicious are Maniac (town clear), bo (and even then it's just a suspicion) and me (and I'm just following ND on this because I thought his reasoning seemed sound. Also I didn't like the way he was playing but that could be an oracle begging for death...?)

Brainbomb, you say "ND is absolutely disgusting this game with scummy posts right and left", can you tell me exactly which posts seem scummy?

[rdrivera2005]

@RJ - I don't have an scumread on ND on D1 and I don't it's likely the two lead wagons on D1 were scum, it's possible, but not likely. No one make an effort to push another wagon at EOD, even Balki lose steam. So, unless Balki flip scum (and I don't believe it will happen), I will not advocate a ND lynch.

[Hellenic Riot]

##GM Note: The Oracle reveals the exact role, so Maniac is definitely a VT.

[Rjmcf]

I dont really see why were talking about this instead of reevaluating the game knowing maniac is clear. That certainly helps us.

Is new player buddying/mentoring still somewhat scummy? Because Maniac has done that twice on P5.

Not necessarily scum indicative, but seems to me as a new player to be a pretty weak accusation. If Demon pushes agains Maniac later it might be worth looking in to.

I saw Tom's early case on DemonDHK regarding DemonRHK planning to lurk. DemonRHK then seems to have been very active, almost as if he is trying to shake off Tom's case. Is he scared and therefore scum? I know it's weak, but it's D1.

Weak as he says, but I'll add it to the pile.

@thamrick on page 16 you say Maniac is "slight scum" with no justification. Why was this?

Ywo mildly interesting votes. Yavuz unvotes to put himself solely in the lead and then DemonRHK repeats that move moving off yavus to put himself solely in the lead. Think noth these are town moves, so I've got to come off DemonRHK.

That's fair reasoning. I give more towncred to Yavuz than Demon for that but Demon seems less scummy now.

@thamrick scumreads Maniac again on page 24, with not much more reasoning. ("maybe I just don't like Maniac's style of play, but has seemed very unhelpful.") This seems especially weird coming so soon after Maniac demonstrating a willingness to change reads based on new information, which you're not apparently?

reedeer's votes on page 33 put him in a good light, because he's reading Maniac well. Is that a fair analysis?

Besides like what has maniac done at all

I mean that's fair I guuueesss, it's easy to inflate people's positive actions in hindsight. Perhaps thamrick isn't so sus then? I'd still like to hear from them.

Im thinkin maniac-reedeer-bo are solid lynches. Reedeer is scum or vash is scum. I strongly doubt that both are

The reason you lynched Jamiet was because you caught him voting Vash without scumreading them. You're doing the exact same thing here?! I still think bb is town but I'm seeing connections between bb and thamrick now.

Actually wait wtf, bb you say you might gun Maniac on page 21, then on page 33 you're amazed he's a top townread, then on page 37 and 38 we've got the above quotes, then on page 40 Maniac's a potential scumteam, reiterated pages 41 and 42? You apologised for your 180 but my god did it come out of nowhere. You don't mention Maniac between pages 21 and 33 and in that time he's gone from town to scumteam over the next few pages. Why?

I want some answers from brainbomb and thamrick after that. Also if anyone feels my analysis wanting I'd like to compare it with someone else's, because I don't really know what I'm looking for.

[Rjmcf]

​Rjmcf - “Dunno if everyone thinks this is obvious and me spelling it out makes me seem even more stupid, but you expecting to get shot makes it sound a whole lot like you’re not the gunsmith? […] Also can someone answer my questions with more than “bork” please? It’s odd for everyone to have in-jokes and the like that new folks aren’t party to. Also feel free to update the fact that when others explained their viewpoint I agreed that handing out a gun first night makes sense.”

People that get bothered this easily are really bad at hiding their scum traits, and Rjmcf is bad at hiding his scum traits. Particularly, his idea for a town leader is something that newbie scum go for all the time because it takes the responsibility off of their shoulders and puts it on someone else’s and him trying to backpedal away from what he said is hilariously bad. Sheeping a “leader” works on EM but not here. That said, I don’t see any argument for him being coached, at least not so far.

I was feeling a little embarrassed in the first part of this quote. I had just asked a completely stupid question about guns, been smacked down for it, and then was forced to ask about what I thought of as silly, in-jokey terminology. This was my 4th post ever in mafia. Cut me from slack for being nervous to put myself out there, when every time I've tried before I was an idiot.

The rest of that quote is me getting more and more frustrated that I feel like I'm not being listened to. I've still not got an answer on the damn borks, and now when someone I read as super influential has me pegged as scum for an unfounded, newbie opinion, they won't change their mind when I very clearly stated that I had changed mine. Again, these feel like very human responses.

[Foxcastle]

​Rjmcf - “Dunno if everyone thinks this is obvious and me spelling it out makes me seem even more stupid, but you expecting to get shot makes it sound a whole lot like you’re not the gunsmith? […] Also can someone answer my questions with more than “bork” please? It’s odd for everyone to have in-jokes and the like that new folks aren’t party to. Also feel free to update the fact that when others explained their viewpoint I agreed that handing out a gun first night makes sense.”

People that get bothered this easily are really bad at hiding their scum traits, and Rjmcf is bad at hiding his scum traits. Particularly, his idea for a town leader is something that newbie scum go for all the time because it takes the responsibility off of their shoulders and puts it on someone else’s and him trying to backpedal away from what he said is hilariously bad. Sheeping a “leader” works on EM but not here. That said, I don’t see any argument for him being coached, at least not so far.

I was feeling a little embarrassed in the first part of this quote. I had just asked a completely stupid question about guns, been smacked down for it, and then was forced to ask about what I thought of as silly, in-jokey terminology. This was my 4th post ever in mafia. Cut me from slack for being nervous to put myself out there, when every time I've tried before I was an idiot.

The rest of that quote is me getting more and more frustrated that I feel like I'm not being listened to. I've still not got an answer on the damn borks, and now when someone I read as super influential has me pegged as scum for an unfounded, newbie opinion, they won't change their mind when I very clearly stated that I had changed mine. Again, these feel like very human responses.

Rjm is bringing back fond memories for me.
Because this is not just newbie thinking. This is newbie scum thinking like I was doing last game—which Brain let me get away with to the point of declaring me Town clear ublynchable in his final reads before being NK'd.

[Maniac]

Maniac, aren't you dead?

Reports of my death have been exaggerated