M80 Game Thread

[sweetandcool]

So some things to keep in mind when we see wagons tied, or shifting seemingly out of nowhere, the mafia have a vote remover. Which probably helps protect a mafia member, or helps implicate a town member if it happens to get used.

Before I talk about this a bunch more im gonna go read the doc because I didnt really care about the setup other than my own role up to this point. And afformentioned Jailor thoughts.

All mafia and town powers can only be used at night. So we don't have to worry about that on D1.

[Jamiet99uk]

Also when I made my comment about jailors being able to help the mafia prevent being copscanned, I noticed that Jamie said the jailors cant self jail, but something Jamie did not realize is that the Jailors dont prevent night actions either. this was not a trap I intentionally laid, but it can be possible Jamie townslipped there in also not realizing the mistake I made.

Oh, that's unusual - and you're right that I had not noticed that. Thank you for pointing it out.

Note however, just for complete fairness, my reaction to this does not win me any townpoints, really, since town also has a jailor action.

[bozotheclown]

Can you please reference game numbers?

Yeah sorry.

M71 is the Dec 21 game. It was the double mafia family game. You were on one team with Durga and Flum, ghug was on another with Sabi and captainmeme.

M73 is the Mar 22 game. You were the JOAT in that one.

In M71, I thought you and ghug could have been faking the conflict as teammates on the other scum team.

I don't understand how M73 is relevant to the point I think you are tying to make, other than you did not do anything I found suspicious D1 in that game. Then you cleared both of us D2.

OK, I see the relevance of M73 now, that was the game where ghug subbed out because of the conflict between you. However, I did scum read ghug for his part in that interaction, and he turned out to be mafia.

So, to summarize, both games you mentioned I suspected the conflict could have been motivated by at least one of the participants being mafia, and in both games one of the participants was mafia. I don't see how these examples reinforce your suspicion of me, although I will not assume I was correct about ghug's motivation. Even if I was "right for the wrong reason" in those games, I still do not see how they support your argument.

[Jamiet99uk]

So some things to keep in mind when we see wagons tied, or shifting seemingly out of nowhere, the mafia have a vote remover. Which probably helps protect a mafia member, or helps implicate a town member if it happens to get used.

Before I talk about this a bunch more im gonna go read the doc because I didnt really care about the setup other than my own role up to this point. And afformentioned Jailor thoughts.

All mafia and town powers can only be used at night. So we don't have to worry about that on D1.

During the day, we have the power of our votes, me hearties!

[sweetandcool]

##Bozo

I'd vote Bona because I don't like the quality of their posts but Bozo look like their the lead wagon rn and I don't want Eden to die. I think Eden still has info to give/analysis to share.

Form what I've seen of Eden, he seems strongest in the late game; he plays well when he has a great deal of info/when he has an idea he wants to implement. It kinda tracks that he wants a game where theres as much info to be gleamed as possible.

##vote Dousing

Can you explain me how or where have you seen that "Eden is strongest in late game"? This is so scum tryng to park a vote that I can help myself voting you.

And this also comes across as Mafia trying to park their vote. Dousing has played one game, and you know it. Dousing has formed this opinion based on the one previous game they have played. Of course, if we haven't played X number of games, we're not allowed to form opinions on other players.

[brainbomb]

So maybe Eden just really doesnt like losing arguments. I think he enjoys sparring, and mentally trying to win a debate, but this game I do feel like he has lost alot of the arguments out of getting flustered with how he is coming across.

I keep seeing bozo looking pretty towny, and doing a good job of fending off what feel like riposte and im not sure Eden is enjoying losing these scuffles. It also doesnt have to mean Eden is scum, it can mean he just doesnt like getting out dueled in debates

[Dousing]

It most certainly does, but none from this game, so that's fine. It's a rebuttal to ghug's assertion not a core part of my argument.

I'm sure there's evidence present for *YOU* but I need you to convince *ME* that there is a "pattern" that's not being followed here.

You've outlined the pattern already, thats fine. but where's evidence to show such a pattern exists or that it's being broken?

oh

well, no. lol

I don't ultimately care very much about how bozo processed a couple of loosely analogous events from over a year ago. ghug brought it up, and I did the legwork on it to discuss it with him, but I think the initial arguments I made (around when I voted for bozo) are the relevant arguments here and the ones I would like people to examine and discuss

??? You still missed my point entirely.

I think you’re saying that the whole issue was tangential. However I’d say that even a tangential argument should still be backed up by evidence.


I refuse to believe that any mafia member would willingly just vote for someone just bc “wElL EdEn sAiD tHAt iN GAmE #69420 thEy WErE sCuM aND eDEn wOuLd NeVeR LiE tO mE!”

[President Eden]

Yeah sorry.

M71 is the Dec 21 game. It was the double mafia family game. You were on one team with Durga and Flum, ghug was on another with Sabi and captainmeme.

M73 is the Mar 22 game. You were the JOAT in that one.

In M71, I thought you and ghug could have been faking the conflict as teammates on the other scum team.

I don't understand how M73 is relevant to the point I think you are tying to make, other than you did not do anything I found suspicious D1 in that game. Then you cleared both of us D2.

OK, I see the relevance of M73 now, that was the game where ghug subbed out because of the conflict between you. However, I did scum read ghug for his part in that interaction, and he turned out to be mafia.

So, to summarize, both games you mentioned I suspected the conflict could have been motivated by at least one of the participants being mafia, and in both games one of the participants was mafia. I don't see how these examples reinforce your suspicion of me, although I will not assume I was correct about ghug's motivation. Even if I was "right for the wrong reason" in those games, I still do not see how they support your argument.

ghug's argument is that you tend to come to errant conclusions about mafia suspects when strong emotion is involved, and that that is why you are reading me the way you are.

My retort is that you came to reasonably good conclusions about ghug in M73, when you were town, but more importantly that you didn't base your suspicion off of the fight alone, but looked to other evidence and context to build an opinion. In M71, you were mafia, and you landed on a fairly wild theory and didn't dig into it much further.

Based on these games, I believe they support my contention that you're mafia, because here you have simply decided today must be either me or Bona, and you looked to my argument with brain without any real analysis or context to say that I "could be" faking things. There was no analysis of whether it fit scum motivation or not, no analysis of the rather large body of other work I have put out besides arguing with brain, nor was there any of your usual interest in other potential wagons.

The whole M71/M73 thing is really a sideshow from ghug that he hasn't supported, and I'm increasingly suspicious that he is your teammate and just trying to derail the discussion.

[Bonatogether]

@bozo

• What is the scum motivation for me fighting with brainbomb like this? More importantly, did you even ask yourself this question?
• We have six hours to go. Why are you treating today like a foregone me/Bona conclusion?

To be super explicit:

Do you remember him drawing weird conclusions about scum motivations in our fighting in those couple games? Because I do.

I don’t, but I’ll look. To be clear you mean the Dec 21 and Mar(?) 22 games where you and I were fighting, right? (I guess I need it even more explicit lol.)

@rdr—nothing notable about Haze, I don’t find them scummy per se so much as, the more my view of the game is developing, the more I think the mafia are in the wallflowers.

only scumreading those who post little is monkey brain

it's very easy to do

[brainbomb]

players struggle with context, and they seem unable to read between the lines, instead using things like "angst, frustration, AtE, passion, and fury" as towntells. The argument usually has a winning side and a losing side, and town usually beats town in an argument. Where scum doesnt even bother to have the argument and looks to character defamation, AtE, and obfuscation to change the narrative.

I will have to concede that nothing can be gleaned from me beating eden in these debates, because he was never going to tolerate any scenario where he was on the losing end, or where my assumptions were spot on. Even if he is town, and even if he was scum, he simply doesnt enjoy debating me and would rather it be something simple like that im mafia who just wants to railroad him.

[Dousing]

##Bozo

I'd vote Bona because I don't like the quality of their posts but Bozo look like their the lead wagon rn and I don't want Eden to die. I think Eden still has info to give/analysis to share.

Form what I've seen of Eden, he seems strongest in the late game; he plays well when he has a great deal of info/when he has an idea he wants to implement. It kinda tracks that he wants a game where theres as much info to be gleamed as possible.

##vote Dousing

Can you explain me how or where have you seen that "Eden is strongest in late game"? This is so scum tryng to park a vote that I can help myself voting you.

And this also comes across as Mafia trying to park their vote. Dousing has played one game, and you know it. Dousing has formed this opinion based on the one previous game they have played. Of course, if we haven't played X number of games, we're not allowed to form opinions on other players.

Sweet you of all people should know that even new players can form opinions on other players.

From what I’ve seen, Eden fared a lot better in the late game than the early game.

You‘re telling me Eden’s arguments are poor and I agree with you. I’m also saying that Eden will likely improve if last game has any predictive power.

[Bonatogether]

in fact imma just say it

if bozo flips scum ghug is his partner

no cap on god 100

cringe take

[President Eden]

So maybe Eden just really doesnt like losing arguments. I think he enjoys sparring, and mentally trying to win a debate, but this game I do feel like he has lost alot of the arguments out of getting flustered with how he is coming across.

I keep seeing bozo looking pretty towny, and doing a good job of fending off what feel like riposte and im not sure Eden is enjoying losing these scuffles. It also doesnt have to mean Eden is scum, it can mean he just doesnt like getting out dueled in debates

no

I'm pissed off now that I made very concrete, concise, directed arguments about bozo's behavior in this game, with the only out of game context being the immediately preceding game which is highly relevant:

anyway, I can’t fathom town bozo looking at my d1 and going “yep that’s the same guy I just played scum with last game.”

Obviously I’m capable of mixing up my style, but I at least can’t appreciate any tactical value that might have been gained by me getting in this fight as scum, and it doesn’t even look like bozo asked himself that question. he just saw a controversial flash point that could be used to justify a vote and went with it

##VOTE bozotheclown

The timing on bozo’s vote is off to me as well, because he treats today like a foregone me/Bona conclusion when we’re so far out. I went and checked bozo’s posting patterns the last few games because he felt late… he often arrives at about 16h to EOD with questions and prompts and often pushes other votes until it’s clearly time to narrow down wagons. This is just way too early

If he is scum then Bona is probably town and scum!bozo wants to cement a TvT d1

@bozo

• What is the scum motivation for me fighting with brainbomb like this? More importantly, did you even ask yourself this question?
• We have six hours to go. Why are you treating today like a foregone me/Bona conclusion?

You weren’t asked if me faking it is possible, you were asked if that’s what you think happened.

I’ve seen you successfully attack me as town before, you don’t hide behind the veil of possibilities.

And apparently none of you can keep on point because the instant ghug offhandedly mentions some games from over a year ago in rebuttal, and I take the slightest amount of time to address it, you all get stuck on these irrelevant examples and ignore that I've made real points about real behavior in this real game we are playing right now.

I don't know why the fuck I play with y'all because when I wallpost like this y'all bitch that I write too much but when I keep it concise for you Neanderthals you ignore what matters

[Dousing]

I'm sure there's evidence present for *YOU* but I need you to convince *ME* that there is a "pattern" that's not being followed here.

You've outlined the pattern already, thats fine. but where's evidence to show such a pattern exists or that it's being broken?

oh

well, no. lol

I don't ultimately care very much about how bozo processed a couple of loosely analogous events from over a year ago. ghug brought it up, and I did the legwork on it to discuss it with him, but I think the initial arguments I made (around when I voted for bozo) are the relevant arguments here and the ones I would like people to examine and discuss

??? You still missed my point entirely.

I think you’re saying that the whole issue was tangential. However I’d say that even a tangential argument should still be backed up by evidence.


I refuse to believe that ANY MAFIA MEMBER would willingly just vote for someone just bc “wElL EdEn sAiD tHAt iN GAmE #69420 thEy WErE sCuM aND eDEn wOuLd NeVeR LiE tO mE!”

I should clarify. By “mafia member” I mean anyone that plays mafia (AKA town + mafia) not just people who are scum.

[President Eden]

To be super explicit:

Do you remember him drawing weird conclusions about scum motivations in our fighting in those couple games? Because I do.

I don’t, but I’ll look. To be clear you mean the Dec 21 and Mar(?) 22 games where you and I were fighting, right? (I guess I need it even more explicit lol.)

@rdr—nothing notable about Haze, I don’t find them scummy per se so much as, the more my view of the game is developing, the more I think the mafia are in the wallflowers.

only scumreading those who post little is monkey brain

it's very easy to do

Haze has over 100 posts.

I never said they lowpost.

I said they blended in like a wallflower.

[brainbomb]

You are focused on the people attacking you, whats your thoughts on the people who have barely given any feedback on anything we discussed and simply stated that Eden vs BB is T-T.

to my memory the list was like rivera, damo, s&c and I think maybe someone else, kak perhaps?

almost always in these things there is a mafia who takes both sides and tries to play Aunt Jemima for everyone

[brainbomb]

or there is the very nuanced bunnygo stance that were both mafia but not on the same mafia team and the setup is actually multiball?

[sweetandcool]

##vote Dousing

Can you explain me how or where have you seen that "Eden is strongest in late game"? This is so scum tryng to park a vote that I can help myself voting you.

And this also comes across as Mafia trying to park their vote. Dousing has played one game, and you know it. Dousing has formed this opinion based on the one previous game they have played. Of course, if we haven't played X number of games, we're not allowed to form opinions on other players.

Sweet you of all people should know that even new players can form opinions on other players.

From what I’ve seen, Eden fared a lot better in the late game than the early game.

You‘re telling me Eden’s arguments are poor and I agree with you. I’m also saying that Eden will likely improve if last game has any predictive power.

I can only conclude you misread me, are responding to two people simultaneously or didn't catch my tone. My last sentence was sarcasm, and my post was in line with what you said (though I posted before reading). I was claiming that rdr was commiting the same sin that they were accusing you of.

[brainbomb]

ghug has always had me as mafia and eden as town from what I recall. I dont think there was ever even a moment of doubt about eden from ghug. and this is potentially legit, or a latent form of buddying where ghug knows that siding with me here is the fastest way to get eden woke about him

[President Eden]

You are focused on the people attacking you, whats your thoughts on the people who have barely given any feedback on anything we discussed and simply stated that Eden vs BB is T-T.

to my memory the list was like rivera, damo, s&c and I think maybe someone else, kak perhaps?

almost always in these things there is a mafia who takes both sides and tries to play Aunt Jemima for everyone

my previous comments about damo and kak stand

s&c I thought was mafia early because his early bit looked forced/scripted/not genuine town, but as he's gotten warmed up and involved he's dropped some of the hyper self aware stuff and just started hunting and playing the game. i'm too aggravated to bother looking up posts at this point since no one fucking reads anyway, you take my answer for what it is or you don't.

rdr has been level and observant, again don't have posts to cite. think he's been a little more in the mix than he is as mafia, but don't have a solid opinion formed, just remember liking what I saw