M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[Jamiet99uk]

RIP Worcej.

Interesting kill. Worcej was scumreading me so I fear the kill was intended to set me up on the basis of "Oh Scum!Jamie killed Worcej because Worcej was scumreading him" and because there was tension between us in general.

So the GodFather is either Ghug or Kak.

This is difficult.

[Jamiet99uk]

I have to say I was hoping to be the NK so I didn't have to decide the outcome of the game.

Now I'm left with two people I wasn't particularly scumreading, and I have to pick which one is scum.

One of these people is town and I want to win the game with them.

One of these people has done very well indeed at seeming townie but is my enemy.

Argh.

[Jamiet99uk]

Looking at DonnyKak's vote history is interesting.

Donny's D1 votes were: Damo, Celaph, Durga

Donny's D2 votes were: Bob, TFB, Celaph

Donny's only D3 vote was on Durga. His vote took the wagons from Durga 6 vs Hellenic Riot 5, to Durga 7 vs Hellenic Riot 5.

Donny on D4 was the second voter on Vecna just a few minutes into the day, and stayed there.

On D5 Donny was the first voter on the Bona wagon.

On D6 Donny was on Hellenic Riot.

On D7 Donny voted Rdr and then TFB.

On D8 Kak arrived and first voted Damo (making Damo tie with Bob), before the self-vote thing, a quick vote for me, then back to Damo. The second vote on Damo put Damo into the lead with less than an hour left.

Observations:

Donny only voted for scum D1

Donny's D2 vote for Celaph made it a tie between Celaph and TFB, where TFB had been in the lead, and with around 90 seconds to go. (I then broke that tie to send Celaph to face justice).

Donny's D3 vote solidified the Durga wagon.

Donny was an early member of the D4 Vecna wagon.

Donny's vote put the Damo wagon into the lead on D8.

Conclusion:

If we believe Donny/Kak is scum then we must acknowledge that they bussed every single one of their team-mates, not just jumping on to doomed scumbuddies for credit, but actually bussing hard all D1, playing a crucial role in the Celaph wagon going over, and having a real impact on the Durga, Vecna, and Damo wagons.

This would be truly epic-level bussing which puts even my own efforts as a busser to shame.

But on the other hand, if they're town..... could it really be possible that someone who seemed as dis-engaged as Donny did, at certain times in the game, was actually a low-key super sleuth who had sniffed out the entire scumteam in the first few days?

Neither of these scenarios seems particularly likely.

Yet one of them is true.

[Jamiet99uk]

That was a fascinating review of Kak/Donny.

Whichever team they are on, if that team wins, they deserve a huge amount of credit.

But I don't know which team that is!

[Jamiet99uk]

Some other things I notice about Donny on re-read:

D1:
- Trying to get Bona to vote for Celaph.
- Then disagreeing with Bona's townread on Celaph.
- Questioning DeathLlama for townreading Celaph.
- Advocated a Celaph wagon over the Flum wagon.

D3:
- Calling me out for attacking Maniac's inaction and asking me why I wasn't pressuring Vecna in the same way.
- Calling out Damo for inconsistent analysis of BusinessLamp.

D4:
- Highlighted what he saw as Durga's attempts to defend Foxcastle/Vecna on D1. This was part of an exchange with Kgray who, at that time, appeared to townread Vecna (who Donny was already voting for).

Regularly, repeatedly drawing attention to scum.
In addition to Donny's actual votes, this really would be some unholy bussing.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Ghug:

You've repeatedly scumread and voted Kak since they subbed in.

Tell me your thoughts in light of the enormous amount of bussing that would have to have been taking place, if Kak really is scum?

[ghug]

@Ghug:

You've repeatedly scumread and voted Kak since they subbed in.

Tell me your thoughts in light of the enormous amount of bussing that would have to have been taking place, if Kak really is scum?

We know the remaining scum bussed a bunch, so I don't think it automatically disqualifies him. You have a bit more of a history with intense bussing than either Donny or Kak, but you also have more of a history in general. Donny's quiet and a little weird, but he's also shown himself to be a pretty crafty player, and I also think it's entirely within Kak's wheelhouse to sub in, see pressure, and respond by distancing aggressively.

The D1 votes are surprising and a good find, but I'm not sure exactly what to make of them.

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't know what to make of them either. Honestly.

It's interesting data but I'm not sure what the conclusion should be.

The thing is, Ghug, if he isn't scum.... then you are.

[ghug]

I don't know what to make of them either. Honestly.

It's interesting data but I'm not sure what the conclusion should be.

The thing is, Ghug, if he isn't scum.... then you are.

No u

[ghug]

Something I'd forgotten about is Donny OMGUS voting Durga when we wagoned him day 1 while not really caring about my or kgray's votes. It feels like an awkward attempt to create distance.

I'm not sure how important the other votes on scum were D1. Neither looked to be at serious risk.

[ghug]

I just want it on the record when I fuck this up and get it wrong that we would have won this game if we'd used our two kills on Jamie and Kak like I wanted.

[ghug]

Rip dl
Other than the ghug rb, which I believe, Bob seems worried about how he is going to get voted for dl's death. There is that consusuin from bob again like eod1.
hr vote for Celaph, which is interesting.
Kgray on Durga and ghug on hr despite liking Hr's reads??

Ghug, do you feel Hr is trying to say what you want to hear than an actual thought process?

Kgray says celaph is k also, which feels a bit like whoever is fine by her.

Kgray, why do you feel this way on Celaph?

I find Kgray's repsonse interesting on giving up on hr defending saying to leave to himself because she just drops it suddenly.

Kgray, do you feel hr is beyond needing your help or do you feel there is no point?

During the kgray Durga exchange Jamie appears and starts to complain about it being endless.
I do like that Hr wants to move on with the conversation and move on to other topics.
Jamiet then picks up on Hrs suggestion of Celaph and how hr feels about it.
He then got really angry about not wanting to waste towns need to flip kgray Durga unless they resolve their issues.

I feel like this is quite controlling and a strong reaction from him for a rather short exchange, like I could see scum jamie doing it to disrupt a convo that may lead to negative result like the point of hr.

Jamiet, were you trying to prevent another flum situation with that?

Kgray moving on to Celaph suddenly saying shes good with durga?

Seems sudden to move on to someone she thought was lukewarm on particularly after Jamiet came barging in.

Kgray was there something that prompted this?

Chaqa with a rb also ,so now both him and ghug.
ghug retracts as a reaction post claim.
I do agree with ghug on chaqas response.
Kgray now moving off celaph feeling that needs to change??
Not sure I like kgray moving this much without much reasoning.

This (from early day 2) feels like an attempt to set kgray up for awkward come connections with yet unflipped scum.

[ghug]

At least celaph started wallposting again with actual thoughts.

@Celaph when did you start doing this? Have you already done it in the large swathes of D1 or is it a recent thing as Demon claims?

Started mostly today.

Vecna, why does it matter when Celaph started posting again?
Seems pointless to ask

Not sure of the relevance, but potential scum talking to scum about other scum is always interesting.

[ghug]

Donny's celaph vote D2 still looks very good.

[ghug]

Donny's only reaction to the celaph death was to shade Lamp as a possible teammate.

I find this post interesting, as a plausible explanation for a celaph bus is his earlier suspicion of him, but Donny doesn't seem to remember that:

##vote goldfinger0303


Time for you to explain what made you dislike the celaph wagon that you'd literally only just left.



@Donny

Also time for you to explain why you voted TFB and then switched to celaph ten minutes later.

k hr
Looking back at it there was a chaqa post about celaph not really defending himself that I thought was out of character and decided then to vote for him.
I admit it was more a sudden gut feeling then than anything else.

[ghug]

Donny's Vecna vote looks very good as well. The Durga vote is meh.

[Jamiet99uk]

I just want it on the record when I fuck this up and get it wrong that we would have won this game if we'd used our two kills on Jamie and Kak like I wanted.

Which nights?

[Jamiet99uk]

Kak being online but not posting is bothering me.

[Kakarroto]

RIP Worcej.

Interesting kill. Worcej was scumreading me so I fear the kill was intended to set me up on the basis of "Oh Scum!Jamie killed Worcej because Worcej was scumreading him" and because there was tension between us in general.

So the GodFather is either Ghug or Kak.

This is difficult.

I was getting the impression with the last day (before his last post) that he was suspecting ghug much more than Jamie. Only in his EoN read he said that he suspected Jamie was mafia in his opinion. Maybe he was thinking it right away (right after the bob flip) and that came through subconsciously in his posts, but I don't see that, but I often miss such subtlety between the line things in these games. His last post was just a few seconds before EoN too, right before mine, so that wouldn't influence the night action, right?

Jamie, did you feel he was suspecting you more than ghug before his last post?

With my history I think I'd be capable to bus like this, sure. As ghug said, mafia bussed in this game so I'm not sure how much we can give credit anymore for all those actions.

Before your analysis, Jamie, I knew Donny's votes weren't bad, but to be this good, I'm surprised. I kinda feel now the game would've been solved if he was here and not subbed out. Although I'm thinking, why wouldn't the slot be a target for the night action with that good of a record? I mean I asked something like that before since Jamie looked to me as having a similar good record. Does mafia just think the vote record doesn't matter?

In that regard, ghug, can you tell me what made you tunnel on my slot so hard before? Was it more like a general feeling, a 'I don't want to let a Jamie/Kak situation happen', a 'donny bad so kak bad' thing? Or something completely different?

[Kakarroto]

Kak being online but not posting is bothering me.

sorry, got surprise-visited earlier today with a bunch of food (which was very delicious btw) and still feeling lazy and sluggish after a big feast, rolling from one side to the other while typing.

Also, I think I don't feel the same pressure as you since the game was much shorter for me, it has been a nearly a month or so for you two, right? *looks at start date* oh yeah, in four days it would be a whole month. It feels more like a mini for me.