M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[ghug]

Why are we a group?

loudest influencers who i am overly wary of

Wait... you know me too well to lump me in with ghug/kgray don't do this

Don't pretend we aren't your favorite people.

[celaph]

So the fact that Bob did it alot and kept doing it is a town indicative?

Yes, the fact he painted an ever-bigger target on himself by responding to people pressuring him for something by doing it even more, with a wider net to make even more people look at him, is not a response I would expect anyone with a modicum of intelligence to make as scum. See Bob, I was crediting you with being intelligent all along!

You expected Bob as scum to shift instead of repeating the same thing.
That makes sense.
@BOB
Would you say EOD was chaotic?

This question feels very leading, though I'm inclined to think not both Donny+Bob scum or they could have planned this better.

[celaph]

How often are day one votes town v town? I’d imagine often with a competent mafia

Pretty regularly yeah, although not necessarily due to a competent mafia.

wait a second I need someone other than you to answer this LOL

He's not really wrong though. And the days we have killed scum have usually also come with heavy D1 bussing.

[Durga]

has celaph responded ever to scum reads on him or is he ignoring it

[ghug]

has celaph responded ever to scum reads on him or is he ignoring it

He's catching up.

[bozotheclown]

M64, M69 and M56. No I don't remember any specific instances or games, but I do have an impression in my mind of you coming in and claiming roleblock multiple times, hence my comment.

I don't understand why you said you didn't remember any specific instances when you had just listed 2 specific instances.

I subsequently went and searched, but my initial point was it was an impression, not a set of events in my head.

So it was a coincidence that you mentioned M64 and M69 in your first post?

[ghug]

I don't understand why you said you didn't remember any specific instances when you had just listed 2 specific instances.

I subsequently went and searched, but my initial point was it was an impression, not a set of events in my head.

So it was a coincidence that you mentioned M64 and M69 in your first post?

They were the games we played together where we weren't both scum, I think?

[bozotheclown]

The NK probably implies one of my supposed towncore is scum.

@ghug silly reaction test

Chaqa no longer scum suspect

@Demo you just want to look at total wordcount as a metric

@Jamie from what pov and at what stage?

Basically 1 - ((PlayerCount-Bcount)C5/PlayercountC5)

I hate this post.

Damo, how can it be a silly reaction test if you now no longer suspect Chaqa of being scum? Would you have felt the same way if Chaqa claimed and nobody counter-claimed?

Also while I understand the interaction between Chaqa and ghug can be convincing, we cannot rule out that scum RB'd DeathLlama. There's only two PRs, and if they thought DL was one, it's a 50/50 chance its Doc. If I was scum I'd be roleblocking my kill every night. Why is nobody else even mentioning this possibility?

If your theory is that Chaqa and ghug are both scum fake claiming the RB, I like it, that is the kind of thing Chaqa would want to try as mafia. Then ghug calls out their teammate Bob for not believing his RB claim.

[bozotheclown]

I subsequently went and searched, but my initial point was it was an impression, not a set of events in my head.

So it was a coincidence that you mentioned M64 and M69 in your first post?

They were the games we played together where we weren't both scum, I think?

So Bob was able to recall or look up the 3 games you played together where you were not scum in 3 minutes?

[goldfinger0303]

You double your chances of disrupting a PR by splitting them.

If you accidentally hit a self-saving doctor, you get to guaranteed kill them the next night and roleblock someone else each night.

Two disruptions is always better than one, unless you know who the doctor is and if they need to be roleblocked to kill them that night.

I'm aware you double your chances, but is it worth the cost? You're giving town a soft clear every day. That's a cost worse than letting the doc get a save off that *might* hit your target, or a cop getting a clear. Because that soft clear is known immediately, whereas the cop will remain silent for several days and might not get actionable info at all.

Idk, I've never been Doc, but I know a lot self-save N1. But I know I've been scum a lot, and unless there's a town roleblock, I advocate for roleblocking the kills. The fewer PRs there are, the more useless the roleblock is.

Either way, we're getting distracted from the point of my original post. You are not an auto-clear. You're not even a town lean for me right now. There is a logic to wanting to roleblock your kill, even if you personally do not personally agree with it.

More importantly, I got what I wanted from your response. I questioned why scum would roleblock someone they didn't kill. Scum would respond as you did, giving a reason within game logic that supports the point. But the conclusion to be derived from you explanation is - scum would obviously RB someone other than their kill. Its a very logical thing to do, and they would never not do it until PRs are dead. Ergo, someone who claims RB at this point implicitly must be town. Scum want to be seen as town.

The town response I was looking for was one that contained, at least in part - doesn't even have to be the main point - the possibility that scum could always mix in fake claims for RB (eg: D1: RB and Kill same target. D2: RB and kill separate targets). You could literally just write your exact response and then add the sentence "And then D2 they could RB and kill the same target, and they'd be able to slip in a fake townread" and I would've been happy to townread you for your claim. Because scum wouldn't want to nullify their fakeclaim towncred due to the flimsy challenge of one washed up player who has barely contributed thus far. You'd wait til a ghug or a Jamiet pushed you.

[ghug]

So it was a coincidence that you mentioned M64 and M69 in your first post?

They were the games we played together where we weren't both scum, I think?

So Bob was able to recall or look up the 3 games you played together where you were not scum in 3 minutes?

I mean, I play every game, so he just has to remember what games he played, right?

[Chaqa]

You’ve missed many games of me (even as scum) being very against RBing the kill. I’ve found roleblock claimants are not trusted in our meta. In fact, as scum I will often roleblock someone *because* it will push suspicion on them.

A game or two ago Maniac got more suspected of being scum because he claimed a roleblock. It essentially raises someone’s odds of being scum to like 50/50 in my eyes.

[Chaqa]

I would tend to think the reason I was roleblocked specifically is so that it pushes some people like Durga, HR, or ghug to push me and get me daykilled.

Tbh kinda seems like something scum!Bona might do

[BusinessLamp]

The NK probably implies one of my supposed towncore is scum.

god no sorry this being said by two different people who aren't generally seen as town is really pissing me off LOL. the people who are town-read are townread because of their own actions in the game. people have made their own conclusions based on words and events that transpired in front of everyone. the fact that a decision, made by the mafia, whose ENTIRE GOAL is to cause dissent and remove trust, causes this logic is just like... why would you put any stock in that?!?!? I understand the base premise that like, if kgray is mafia I can't die because the longer she survives while other trusted people are killed the more suspicious it would get, but no. Screw that. It just as easily could be a hair-brained scheme so that people could say this exact thing.

let people's actions dictate how you feel, not the mafia kill.

steps off soapbox

[goldfinger0303]

You’ve missed many games of me (even as scum) being very against RBing the kill. I’ve found roleblock claimants are not trusted in our meta. In fact, as scum I will often roleblock someone *because* it will push suspicion on them.

A game or two ago Maniac got more suspected of being scum because he claimed a roleblock. It essentially raises someone’s odds of being scum to like 50/50 in my eyes.

Not that I disagree with you, but you realize you just gave me the answer I was waiting to hear after I told you I was waiting to hear it, right?

It's like turning in a take-home test after the due date once the professor has posted the answers

[celaph]

Got town Vecna vibes from Goldie's catchup. I think there are a few points needing correction or explanation, but it doesn't feel forced or careless and I think he's done a good job highlighting relevant details from the days. Dislike the PR hunting.

P40. Maniac is described as following though Maniac was out challenging Jamie on why lying flum is a scum flum. That doesn't look like following to me and I think it reflects rather well on Maniac, not poorly.

P48. Why is Chaqa described as tunneling on llama? He had hardly talked about him until now.

P72. Kgray points this out later, but HR wasn't responsible for the rdr wagon.

[BobMcBob]

I don't understand why you said you didn't remember any specific instances when you had just listed 2 specific instances.

I subsequently went and searched, but my initial point was it was an impression, not a set of events in my head.

So it was a coincidence that you mentioned M64 and M69 in your first post?

Yes it was purely a lucky guess, and I found it very amusing.

[Chaqa]

You’ve missed many games of me (even as scum) being very against RBing the kill. I’ve found roleblock claimants are not trusted in our meta. In fact, as scum I will often roleblock someone *because* it will push suspicion on them.

A game or two ago Maniac got more suspected of being scum because he claimed a roleblock. It essentially raises someone’s odds of being scum to like 50/50 in my eyes.

Not that I disagree with you, but you realize you just gave me the answer I was waiting to hear after I told you I was waiting to hear it, right?

It's like turning in a take-home test after the due date once the professor has posted the answers

I guess it does come off that way lol

I was mostly trying to contextualize why I wouldn’t even think to mention it, because it’s been painfully obvious based off of recent games, in fact I pushed maniac in the mentioned game because he was “roleblocked” (he was actually scum fake claiming)

[goldfinger0303]

Got town Vecna vibes from Goldie's catchup. I think there are a few points needing correction or explanation, but it doesn't feel forced or careless and I think he's done a good job highlighting relevant details from the days. Dislike the PR hunting.

P40. Maniac is described as following though Maniac was out challenging Jamie on why lying flum is a scum flum. That doesn't look like following to me and I think it reflects rather well on Maniac, not poorly.

P48. Why is Chaqa described as tunneling on llama? He had hardly talked about him until now.

P72. Kgray points this out later, but HR wasn't responsible for the rdr wagon.

All fair and good corrections.

[celaph]

Here's the TLDR for my post

Ghug, Jamiet, blamp, bozo, and bona, are all pretty high townreads for me...roughly in that order.

Damo, HR, Bob, DL, Donny are all top scumreads...with a big question mark for Maniac as well.

Vecna and celaph left *zero* impression on me. Say what you will about that. Durga is an enigma to me, as always.

Lack of Chaqa read here is surprising given his earlier comments. @goldie where would you put Chaqa?