MAFIA 71: "PAPERS PLEASE" - GAME THREAD [Hidden]

[BesharamSabi]

Hey @Flum since everyone is ignoring my alliance, I'll join yours if you agree to get them to vote no kill?

You know, if there's one game where no killing might make sense day 1, it's a multi.
Night kill analysis in multi is pretty big and gives us concrete stuff to work off and this first daykill phase feels much less important than usual.

I'll contact members of my alliance and ask if they'll agree.

Not to be an echo chamber but I will also ask huh. Flum why would not day killing help town?

I guess if I channeled this mindset it will force scum to choose to night kill who they wanted to push for day kill. I think that's the only thing we should get from doing that. Should the dayvig also not kill today in that scenario as well.

Am I seeing something you're not and if so could you please expand? Thank you.

---

@everyone

On topic of dayvig, in a game where that was a role how did it work exactly?

[kgray]

I like Tom so far also, though I feel like some people made that declaration a little faster than warranted. One of those people was Damo, though, and that's not sus from him.

Rivera seems different this game - more relaxed or positive or optimistic, I think? He's engaging more than I think he normally does early and buddying up to Sabi. I don't know if the engagement difference is alignment-indicative from him, but I actually think his praising of Sabi's more inquisitive style is towny, because I remember how frustrated he got with Sarah when she joined and never played and was a detriment to town. I think Rivera is more likely to genuinely appreciate Sabi's efforts to solve if he's town than he is to buddy Sabi if he's scum.

[rdrivera2005]

You know, if there's one game where no killing might make sense day 1, it's a multi.
Night kill analysis in multi is pretty big and gives us concrete stuff to work off and this first daykill phase feels much less important than usual.

I'll contact members of my alliance and ask if they'll agree.

I think no-kill on D1 never makes sense. With two possible (likely) NKs it looks even worse. What am I missing? What info you expect to get from the NKs that are better then the voting analysis?

Why do you think it's worse with two NKs? In normal games DKs are the only chance we have at hitting scum (besides guns I guess) but in this game scum can kill the other team, so that's not as much of a problem here.

Though, I'm still anti no-kill.

Because we can be down to a really bad position really fast if scum hit town. We can't trust Mafia to hit other Mafia as the way to hunt. Even our PRs aren't that powerful, so DK seems the best tool town have to get scum and to generate info.

[brainbomb]

It has its ups and downs sabi. A dayvig is only as good as the person holding the guns reads are. usually dont recommend shooting day one on a one shot, but it has happened. I recall vecna shot vash one time day one and killed the doctor. Ive seen day vigs also play very well before and pick off a scum on day 3 after a few days info. its always up to that player to follow their gut and gameflow for best result

[rdrivera2005]

I like Tom so far also, though I feel like some people made that declaration a little faster than warranted. One of those people was Damo, though, and that's not sus from him.

Rivera seems different this game - more relaxed or positive or optimistic, I think? He's engaging more than I think he normally does early and buddying up to Sabi. I don't know if the engagement difference is alignment-indicative from him, but I actually think his praising of Sabi's more inquisitive style is towny, because I remember how frustrated he got with Sarah when she joined and never played and was a detriment to town. I think Rivera is more likely to genuinely appreciate Sabi's efforts to solve if he's town than he is to buddy Sabi if he's scum.

I am not optimistic, I think this game is really hard for town.

I am relaxed but I usually have been relaxed when I am 100% confirmed vanilla town ®

About Sabi I have played with them before and didn't like their "don't care" approach, this game I am really liking the effort and the will to improve.

[Fluminator]

@everyone who supports murder on day 1

So in normal games with one mafia team, the town has X amount of miskills they can make before they lose the game and that's pretty rigid. If the doctor or vig do well then sometimes you can gain an extra miskill but it's rare.
If town no-kills in a normal game, it almost always lowers the amount of miskills they can make before losing the game and that is always bad. The daykill is the only way for mafia to die so giving one of those up is always bad since we'll never get it back.

In Multi, we have no idea how many miskills we have. The last multi webdip game I think we barely killed any mafia most of the way through the game but we still won because the mafia teams shot each other to swiss.
I've been in several multi games on mafiascum and sometimes the town gets annhilated when it wasn't really their fault, and in others the mafias did all the work. I don't think I've ever seen a multi game where the game was lost on a lylo miskill. There isn't a huge loss if we don't kill on day 1, because that info will just be transferred to a later daykill, but we will have the added information of nightkill analsyis and give PRs more cover to do their thing as well.

[kgray]

I like Tom so far also, though I feel like some people made that declaration a little faster than warranted. One of those people was Damo, though, and that's not sus from him.

Rivera seems different this game - more relaxed or positive or optimistic, I think? He's engaging more than I think he normally does early and buddying up to Sabi. I don't know if the engagement difference is alignment-indicative from him, but I actually think his praising of Sabi's more inquisitive style is towny, because I remember how frustrated he got with Sarah when she joined and never played and was a detriment to town. I think Rivera is more likely to genuinely appreciate Sabi's efforts to solve if he's town than he is to buddy Sabi if he's scum.

I am not optimistic, I think this game is really hard for town.

I am relaxed but I usually have been relaxed when I am 100% confirmed vanilla town ®

About Sabi I have played with them before and didn't like their "don't care" approach, this game I am really liking the effort and the will to improve.

Yeah I think optimistic was a bad word choice, but you're less grouchy than I feel you often are

[Tom Bombadil]

Totally disagree with Flum.

D1 is always a little bit of a shit show, and a lot of chance. But there is a higher ratio of scum than normal, so the chances of hitting or at least wagononingna scum is higher than normal.

Further with two smaller scum teams it’s more difficult for scum to protect teammates, so we should absolutely kill today.

[brainbomb]

Flum; youre forgetting that through failure we learn who tried and who did not. if no one tries all we learn is that no one tried to make anything happen which long term is far more costly to building the strands we need to analyze

[lfischl]

Totally disagree with Flum.

D1 is always a little bit of a shit show, and a lot of chance. But there is a higher ratio of scum than normal, so the chances of hitting or at least wagononingna scum is higher than normal.

Further with two smaller scum teams it’s more difficult for scum to protect teammates, so we should absolutely kill today.

I agree with this. Why would we no-kill if we have 2x the chance of hitting scum. The odds are that we hit town but we still have a better chance of hitting scum than a usual game.

[BesharamSabi]

I like Tom so far also, though I feel like some people made that declaration a little faster than warranted. One of those people was Damo, though, and that's not sus from him.

Rivera seems different this game - more relaxed or positive or optimistic, I think? He's engaging more than I think he normally does early and buddying up to Sabi. I don't know if the engagement difference is alignment-indicative from him, but I actually think his praising of Sabi's more inquisitive style is towny, because I remember how frustrated he got with Sarah when she joined and never played and was a detriment to town. I think Rivera is more likely to genuinely appreciate Sabi's efforts to solve if he's town than he is to buddy Sabi if he's scum.

I am not optimistic, I think this game is really hard for town.

I am relaxed but I usually have been relaxed when I am 100% confirmed vanilla town ®

About Sabi I have played with them before and didn't like their "don't care" approach, this game I am really liking the effort and the will to improve.

Hey I learned my lesson after being yelled at by everyone and their moms my first two games. I never want to be told "you suck, never play mafia again" again because it kinda hurt me not even going to lie.

I will say you are a lot more talkative this game than our previous one. Not sure if that's due to timing of your schedule or alignment based.

Anyway rdr here's some questions for you :

What post so far has caught your eye and why? It can be good or bad or something that people missed completely.

Out of everyone's reads so far who do you disagree the most with and why?

How are you relaxed in this game especially with multi mafia team set up?

I would appreciate if you would answer them. Thank you : )

[Fluminator]

The brunt of the argument is everything we would gain from day 1, we would gain more if we transferred it to day 2, and it doesn't put as any further behind the mafia. (When it would in a normal game)

[kgray]

The brunt of the argument is everything we would gain from day 1, we would gain more if we transferred it to day 2, and it doesn't put as any further behind the mafia. (When it would in a normal game)

But like Rivera said, it does put us farther behind than a normal game if both teams NK town and we're an extra person down going into D2.

[brainbomb]

I wish you put this much effort into telling us who you think scum is and why. this just feels like an age old debate for the sake of debate. This is just you admittedly, youre the guy who would post a thread asking if AIDs is really a problem.

[Fluminator]

The brunt of the argument is everything we would gain from day 1, we would gain more if we transferred it to day 2, and it doesn't put as any further behind the mafia. (When it would in a normal game)

But like Rivera said, it does put us farther behind than a normal game if both teams NK town and we're an extra person down going into D2.

If mafia consistently keep hitting town, we're dead anyway even if we have a perfect kill record lol. We can't assume that will happen or we already lost.

[brainbomb]

Flum do you feel town is off track currently?

[Fluminator]

Flum do you feel town is off track currently?

I don't think we've even left the station yet

[kgray]

The brunt of the argument is everything we would gain from day 1, we would gain more if we transferred it to day 2, and it doesn't put as any further behind the mafia. (When it would in a normal game)

But like Rivera said, it does put us farther behind than a normal game if both teams NK town and we're an extra person down going into D2.

If mafia consistently keep hitting town, we're dead anyway even if we have a perfect kill record lol. We can't assume that will happen or we already lost.

Who said anything about consistently? The chance of mafia NKing town are highest now. Nobody's assuming they'll only ever hit town, but on N1 it's most likely, especially if we no kill.

What happens if no maf are ever killed and all the townies just die? The two teams can't exactly fight it out between themselves... So nobody wins? lmao watch town lose because mafia are just as bad at scumhunting as town and they 'miskill' trying to NK the other team

[brainbomb]

Flum do you feel town is off track currently?

I don't think we've even left the station yet

would you like to close the doors and fire up the train?

[Fluminator]

Flum do you feel town is off track currently?

I don't think we've even left the station yet

would you like to close the doors and fire up the train?

I have a scum hunting technique for multi that has been pretty accurate for me so far, but I'll wait until half way through the day before I reveal it so nobody knowingly avoids it.
I'll start up the train then just for you.