M1020 — Speed Run Mafia GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[snowy801]

@snowy if you town why do you think scum didn't nk you?

Arrogance

[bozotheclown]

bozo how do you feel about the people who wanted to vote you out d1 for not being around and making excuses?

I now believe foodcoats was town.

damo voting for me was questionable, but not necessarily scum indicative by itself (I still suspect damo as scum).

Jamie always votes for me D1 whether he is town or scum, my guess is Jamie is town this time.

HI bozo, now it's my turn for questions for you hehe.

damo voting for me was questionable, but not necessarily scum indicative by itself

Why do you think it's not scum indicative of him to vote for you but then you say you suspect him of being scum anyway? Could you expand on that logic behind that for me.

my guess is Jamie is town this time.

Also could you expand on why you towncleared Jamie? What post of his gave you this assumption?

Thank you so much if you could respond to this. Just need your thought process!

I do not have a problem with damo voting for me for being inactive, but I find his overall voting questionable. He voted for me after foodcoats and Jamie, then when foodcoats and Jamie had moved their votes to worcej, damo voted for worcej as well (foodcoats had moved his vote again by then), and at EOD damo voted for Bonatogether even though Bonatogether was the only player damo had town read at any point D1. It seemed damo was looking for safe wagons to join.

I am not clearing Jamie, but I liked some of his lines of questioning, like pushing snowy on starting the bo_sox wagon.

[snowy801]

@snowy if you town why do you think scum didn't nk you?

Arrogance

Also high key this is why I was sort of relieved bo was not in fact scum, as I would in fact be certainly dead if I just lucked into that

[to be clear I did somewhat think bo might be scum, I would not just vote a town out just to survive - kinda sad this needs to be stated really but we've got Jamiets in this game]

Kinda saw the play when DeathLlama kept squeezing about "well here's your opportunity to vote bo you keep voting about instead of sitting on ghug" but nevertheless figured it was better than having Squigs/celaph wagons

Someone also asked something tangentially related to the statement "this is my kind of EoD" which I'd hope was fairly apparent but you know, two wagons I built and myself at EoD all tied 5 minutes out? Tale as old as time. I tend to sell these setups really well (too well, even if I'm trying not to)

[snowy801]

bbl

[Jamiet99uk]

Did we get a clear answer from Eden about how many scum are here?

If not (which is what I think, although I might have missed it)

Some folk doing math on lylo assuming one number or the other might be worth a look.

That's been done.

[Jamiet99uk]

Alright now let's take a look at who's in this game

Oh my man foodcoats is back

and Squigs is a name I'm familiar with but never in mafia contexts

You and Squigs were both in M39.

Thanks, Encyclopaedia Bozotannica

[Jamiet99uk]

Alright now let's take a look at who's in this game

Oh my man foodcoats is back

and Squigs is a name I'm familiar with but never in mafia contexts

You and Squigs were both in M39.

how do you find this information? just looking through games? I've tried that and it takes forever

Bozo is a Cray C-90 supercomputer that achieved some level of sentience in the mid 2000s.

[Jamiet99uk]

Everyone voted for Bonatogether at some point D1 except Jamie and worcej (and Bonatogether), it would be funny if the scum team was exactly Bonatogether/Jamie/worcej.

It would, but it isn't.

[Jamiet99uk]

Did we get a clear answer from Eden about how many scum are here?

If not (which is what I think, although I might have missed it)

Some folk doing math on lylo assuming one number or the other might be worth a look.

Woah Woah woah

Well what did Eden tell you was the number of scum? I'm sure he disclosed this to yiu right?

Is this a townslip? Or a fake townslip? Because it would have been told to you when you received the role pm.

Is dargo known for this meta wise @ everyone?

What?

Huh?

[Jamiet99uk]

Ok it's not that I agree with them but is it not obvious in context that Sabi is visioning darg as being a GM/council member who reviewed setup and knows # of scum roles, bereft of the probable knowledge that darg was more of a bot manager than GM and does not in fact possess this knowledge as the council is a myth?

Ahhh. I see.

[Jamiet99uk]

Oh wait here it is.

q: why did you push bo_sox yesterday?
a: eh, I wasn't really feeling it but I did sort of not really scum read him and wanted to see how it would end up. The wagon around bona was tremendously interesting and I wanted to see how it would lie down.

This is a shit answer and only addresses half the question.

The whole question was, why did you go from telling Ghug to fuck his list (that had Bo on it) on Page 61, to voting Bo and pushing his wagon by page 64-65?

That was the question and you've only addressed the second part of it.

Even to the extent you've given an answer, saying you "weren't feeling it", and "didn't really scumread him" is an awful explanation for not only voting but encouraging others to join the Bo wagon.

You were the main architect of a wagon on town that you didn't even believe was scum.

You are scum.

Jamiet I can't hold your hand forever every time you roll town
One day you have to try out this reading comprehension thing, it's a blast

"fuck the b-line" clearly did not mean that I town read the b-line or disagree with ghug. Others were capable of perceiving this. How long have you been playing mafia again?

I half thought bo might be scum. I wasn't really tiptoeing the topic. You're the one who didn't want to give me ghug, and while your failure to get anything right is something I've learned to just live with I can hardly be blamed for your and others' failures to have any semblance of a clue

I'm not a miracle worker

But you know I'm town.

Aha.

[BesharamSabi]

Hnmm is this snowy buddying me up like in m70 when he was scum hmmmmmm.

But thank you I am trying my best.

Anyway here's some more questions for you :

What reads from day 1 to now changed the most for you and why?

Who is the weakest town player so far?

Who's reads do you agree with the most and why? It can't be a read about you obviously.

Who's reads do you disagree with the most and why? It can't be a read about you obviously.

So I'm just going to let you know now that I don't tend to answer these kinds of straight shooters regardless so consider this a freebie

1) damo or celaph. If you're not going to achieve much of note the least you can do is have the courtesy to obvtown. Probably going with damo on this one

2) ghug. He's a busser, that one || I think bozo came out with some good takes this morning too, but I skimmed that with blearly eyes and have to digest that properly

3) I dunno, I'm pretty confident squigs is town. I'm going to have to revisit that soon as it's a large pending issue

Doesn't do straight shooters but will give me freebies. Has been known to buddy me before as scum before.

Hmmmm something is off with this hmmm. Anyway let me analyze your responses

Probably going with damo on this one

I do agree that damo is the weaker town person of the two. I want to see if our thoughts match up tho. What made him weaker compared to celaph in your mind?

I'm pretty confident squigs is town

I do find it interesting that you are one of the few people who aren't scum reading Squigs when a good amount of people are. Some how a lot of your reads haven't matched up with the general group consensus of reads. I find this interesting.

I mean I somewhat flip back and forth on Squigs being town or null.

Anyway thank you for the responses buddy.

[damo666]

@snowy if you town why do you think scum didn't nk you?

Arrogance

##vote snowy

[Jamiet99uk]

Even to the extent you've given an answer, saying you "weren't feeling it", and "didn't really scumread him" is an awful explanation for not only voting but encouraging others to join the Bo wagon.

Can you please highlight examples of where you see Snowy actively encouraging others to vote Bo? I agree that the lack of belief that Bo was scum is worrying (see my argument against ghug) but nothing he said since Bo's wagon formed even remotely sounded like encouragement to join him unless you consider Snowy calling himself a vibe merchant with no specifics a good reason to vote Bo.

Well on page 64 he says "Can I whet anyone's appetite for ghug/bo_sox" which is clearly advocating for a Bo wagon. On the same page he encourages Foodcoats to sheep him. On page 68 he votes Bo himself. On page 72 when Bo has lost voters he says "Rip Bo Sox wagon".

Those seem like the actions of someone who wanted a Bo Sox wagon to me.

[celaph]

ghug's apathy feels really scummy. Be really careful with this one.
I called ghug out in M67 for the way you were so willing to vote Chaqa off without any indication that you thought he was actually scum and purely because of a voiced distaste of his playing style. Feel free to read my original post:

[Posting calling out scum ghug behavior]

The short version is that ghug's behavior is not only based on his dislike for his other players. In the above post, I highlighted how over a series of 8 games with both Chaqa and ghug, scum ghug always voted for Chaqa D1 while town ghug never voted for Chaqa D1. Another example would be comparing his attitude towards ND (another player ghug dislikes) between M62 and M63. Granted, ND's lack of participation in M63 weakens this comparison some, but town ghug in M62 demonstrated a belief that the person he was voting for was scum. Scum ghug in M63 did not. Now look at this game, ghug demonstrated no belief that he was killing scum. That's scum ghug.

I'm torn on this. I've felt this meta was inaccurate since it first propped up, but there's no reason for you to think that necessarily, so my first instinct was to like the thought, but it also occurs to me that a piece of meta you've pointed out in the past is easy to fall back on, and my day as a whole doesn't really paint a picture of apathy, which I'd expect you to be looking into further if you were going to make this argument.

As for the meta itself, I think the ND game is actually a point against it, and that was the game when I started being conscious about voting out bad players early rather than anyone I wanted. You can also look at M1019 (lfischl), M70 kind of (I pushed Chaqa as an actual scumread but ended on worcej), M1018 (worcej), just for a few more examples. The games where I do develop scumreads day 1 and get them killed don't tend to work out well, which is why I didn't push you yesterday, for example. I also hold stronger antipathy towards bo than most people, because he's the worst.

I think it's inaccurate to say that my meta-read is that ghug is scum when he is apathetic about the game. I agree that you are not apathetic this game; the main reason I townread you D1 was the protection you showed for Snowy and myself felt like a very town ghug thing. I think my read is best described in my expansion of my beliefs: scum ghug doesn't believe that the person he is voting for D1 is scum. That said, I think it is a valid criticism to say that I have really just restated my previous meta read without looking into it more. At the time I was primarily concerned with posting before EoN, but now that I have time let's dive into this.

tl;dr I'm going to run to breakfast now, but I think it's only right to retract my read a little bit. It fits perfectly for M68, but starts running into troubles after that where town ghug has been willing to end on voting people he hasn't scumread that day. While it isn't below I also briefly skimmed M70 and I didn't see much of a scumread on Worcej (his vote that day). It might be worth it to later read some scum ghug games as these were all town, but that will have to come later.



M68/Town Ghug:
Town ghug ended up voting for Food D1 and had expressed reasonable suspicion regarding food that day.

Have you and I been playing in the same meta? Can a WebDipper Mafioso not crack jokes about how damo666 is some kind of mathlete?

Mafioso, eh?

SCUMSLIP SCUMSLIP SCUMSLIP

He expressed distaste for Food's read list:

[Food Read List]

Oh boy...

What possessed you to make that list, food?

And over the course of the rest of the day he expresses a continued scumread on food twice.

I don't think I've been especially reticent to reveal my reads. I've vocally supported wagoning brain. I've expressed suspicion of food and Johnny, though the latter has acquitted himself well. I've townread Chaqa. I just complained about you.

3. This is a small enough games that I'm a little more inclined to think in terms of groups and interactions on day one. I like you. I like Johnny. I kinda like Chaqa. I'm leaning towards liking brain. I dislike food. It's first order thinking, but that shifts Eden to the bad pile based both on POE and on these people's reads of each other.

M1017/Jester Ghug
Skipping as 3P ghug not relevant to current game.

M69/Town Ghug:
Ghug ended up voting for Bona, though I think it is also worth noting that he did so with less than a minute left and in the last 15 minutes also had votes on Maniac and HB. He expressed suspicion of Maniac and also some of Bona, though in fairness to ghug he also expressed no suspicion of HB and his initial move away from Bona suggests his scumread on him wasn't strong.

On Bona:
It's not obvious to me what ghug means by his first post, but he later responds to Snowy's question in a way that makes it clear he agrees with Bob here.

no i completely agree with this
bonas tone is super fun and chill, but in a way that seems to be relatively likely scum!bona
i dont remember a very strong defense of worcej but either way, would be happy to vote there

I'm seated by this argument as well.

I'm seated by this argument as well.

Could you elaborate on this? What about Bona's actions (if you subscribe to funny in a scummy way theory) particularly speaks to you? Is this behavior known to you? How do you feel about the other two pushing this theory (Vecna/Bob)

Town bona gets miskilled for having our there ideas and expressing them in a way that annoys people. Scum bona tries to mimic this by being loud and annoying because he knows people like me will defend him for it.

That said, in fairness to ghug his reasoning for initially changing off Bona doesn't suggest he strong scumread him.

The Bona vote was largely interesting to me because I thought a lot of people had expressed suspicion and nobody had acted on it. That was wrong.

On Maniac:
He's not overly vocal about his beliefs, but he does suggest that he sees Maniac as scum twice:

That post makes me feel moderately good about Maniac actually.

It's way too fucking normal.

I think all the Maniac voters are completely full of shit.
There's no merit based argument to vote him off, and nobody has proposed a lurker policy so far as I know.

He's scum when he's boring.

On HB:
He says absolutely nothing about HB.

M1018/Town Ghug:
Ghug ended up voting for Worcej. I believe this is the first of the games I've seen in this review where ghug wasn't on the wagon with the most votes.

He expresses no belief that Worcej is scum and votes him saying:

##Vote worcej yolo

[snowy801]

celaph I won't lie I have no idea what your point is

[Jamiet99uk]

I hate to agree with Snowy, but Celaph although that was a very long post already, it could have done with a "conclusions" paragraph.

[Jamiet99uk]

Is the point "Town Ghug often doesn't explain his votes very well"?

[ghug]

Hi darg are you gone? What did you think of worcej?

Actually, that is a good question.
I did not pay as much attention to him, of course, as I read.

I might have voted for him, out of angst. I tend to dislike escalation. And his(my?) vote was clearly defending bona. So I am wrestling with that, despite my vote.

I didn't see anything scumindicative, though.

Pretty sure worcej was town.

Part, I suppose, of why I am voting bona might be to show that I am NOT protecting bona...

##vote darg

Wat

[ghug]

##vote deathllama

What about D1 EOD makes you suspect DeathLlama?

edit: this became a whole thing

he voted me despite 'having trouble getting signal from high posters like snowy/ghug/bona in general' (his stated reason was 'it's weird that bona is gone actually'/'even when he was around yesterday he kinda just stopped progressing reads in the last few hours')

he also interacts a ton with snowy but has never put out a read on him throughout d1. In his VCA post n1, he hedges a townread ('snowy better', 'snowy has positive signal [but thing] which weakens this a little')

he also never mentions sqoogs, except tangentially.

also why make this post? it's so strange because it's 20 minutes after his previous post, which means that he's really just popping in and saying this, but why is this the thing you want to emphasize?

Do you think he's scum with those people?