M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

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Durga
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3301 Post by Durga » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:06 pm

DeathLlama8 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:57 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:33 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pm
I think the real gain from this game is that we finally played a game without toxicity

My first ever such webdip event
I wonder what could have been the cause of a game with no toxicity... Hmmm.. Perhaps a missing element? Wonder what that element could be.
nah it's because I came back
That's true you were also great and should play again
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3302 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3303 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:36 pm

I will also say: rules should be followed. Otherwise games have no meaning. But opinions about rules are not rules, that’s what GMs are for; to give opinions that have the weight of rules. I always ask the GM before doing something. But I have very different opinions about what information is how to use it and how it is insidious than others. Differences of opinions styles is part of what makes this game great. There’s no right answer. But the rules delineate what gives the game any meaning.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3304 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:38 pm

What is this talk about discord?

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3305 Post by snowy801 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3306 Post by snowy801 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:45 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:38 pm
What is this talk about discord?
QuickTopic is shutting down, unfortunately. Or perhaps it's a good thing, we'll see.
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3307 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:12 pm

BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:17 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:16 pm
Doom427 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:08 pm
Woo, wanted to read God Thread for awhile. Also curious about Mafia thread too, see if y'all said anything Day 0
Much less than you thought we might have.
I wasn’t there
Nor was your predecessor, Vecna. As I recall it, 50% of the N0 chat was me whinging about the lack of conversation.
1
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3308 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
1
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3309 Post by Bonatogether » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm

Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:06 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:05 pm
Thanks for hosting Eden pls link god thread
And bona, king!!
8-) 8-) 8-)

i did the best vote counts
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3310 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:21 pm

Bonatogether wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:06 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:05 pm
Thanks for hosting Eden pls link god thread
And bona, king!!
8-) 8-) 8-)

i did the best vote counts
I was so worried in the God Thread that you were going to kill town and make Durga go crazy on the 24 hours to solve this thing or w/e
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3311 Post by Bonatogether » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:21 pm
Bonatogether wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:06 pm


And bona, king!!
8-) 8-) 8-)

i did the best vote counts
I was so worried in the God Thread that you were going to kill town and make Durga go crazy on the 24 hours to solve this thing or w/e
gms never slip
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3312 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
@Snowy:

For example, would you propose a change to the rules, to ban posts such as the following?
Durga wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:53 am
yeah i've also been busy today - i just am remembering how awful he was when he was scum!bunny. i know it's totally possible to switch up meta but does bunny have that kind of depth?
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:41 pm
DeathLlama8 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm
cool thanks
wb the PoE ranking?
Sure, the ranking is more a product of meta analysis and less of hard behavior, something I hope to supplement during my reread and in fact I already do feel somewhat less confident in it. I liked some of Bunny's earlier posts but points about him being a replacement and therefore easily able to play as town since that's how he basically thought about it before he replaced was convincing to me that I shouldn't take that as town indicative as one would initially think. Further some of his later posts were far less appealing and that was true even before ghug's death. Bunnicula is now pretty higher on my list.

<snip>

Durga has seemed off this game and hasn't been asking the tough questions I saw her ask last time and has been shitposting interspersed with a little bit of righteous indignation for not being seen as obv town yet.

As for Jamie, he's been far too nice and unabrasive. Someone told me in the last game Jamie fakes being nice when he's scum where he feels more comfortable being an asshole when he's town.
Durga wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:24 pm

Honestly I said this before but this is the most townie I've ever seen bunny play and last game I thought he was soooo scummy but he was town. That being said, he did sub in and was following the game prior so its much easier to fake townie thoughts. Bunny's meta was also hella different when he *was* scum. But it's not out of his range to fake it.
You're saying posts of this nature should be banned?
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3313 Post by snowy801 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:08 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
“Villains often try to get clever, to stump me with philosophical questions like ‘what is evil?’ To which I answer ‘generally, people asking me that question’, which somehow they never see coming.”
– Aldred Alban of Callow, the Prince Errant

Jamiet none of what you just described is metagaming. One might hope you would've known the difference, but I suppose said one is far too hopeful.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3314 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:09 pm

snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
Pretending you don’t have knowledge is different than not having knowledge! Having knowledge is already influencing you. And not discussing it doesn’t make it not be there. Make a rule that the knowledge can’t be acquired at all, or let it in. But don’t pretend.
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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3315 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm
BunnyGo wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:13 pm
Re: meta gaming, I think using people’s activity on other sites and discord should be barred because it isn’t available to all. But that would require people changing their lives around which is no good. I don’t know what the answer should be. But several times this game it was used.

People practicing “active ethics” on ignoring meta game information is largely a joke. It doesn’t work. I’m a fan of it. But it really requires commitment to LOSE on purple because of accidentally observed meta gaming. It also requires people to consciously observe themselves. Ive done it, I threw a hand in a major bridge tournament because I caught a tell of my partner so I misplayed the hand on purpose to actively not use the tell. There are famous stories about other players doing it. The problem is that the stories are famous because we all know most players don’t do it.

But there needs to be a real discussion on “what information specifically is allowed and disallowed and what players should do when accidentally accessing disallowed information “ if you wish to discuss meta gaming. I don’t think it’s simple.
It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
This. And even worse is people acting on meta knowledge without acknowledging that they are.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3316 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:12 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:36 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm


It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
@Snowy:

For example, would you propose a change to the rules, to ban posts such as the following?
Durga wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:53 am
yeah i've also been busy today - i just am remembering how awful he was when he was scum!bunny. i know it's totally possible to switch up meta but does bunny have that kind of depth?
TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:41 pm
DeathLlama8 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm
cool thanks
wb the PoE ranking?
Sure, the ranking is more a product of meta analysis and less of hard behavior, something I hope to supplement during my reread and in fact I already do feel somewhat less confident in it. I liked some of Bunny's earlier posts but points about him being a replacement and therefore easily able to play as town since that's how he basically thought about it before he replaced was convincing to me that I shouldn't take that as town indicative as one would initially think. Further some of his later posts were far less appealing and that was true even before ghug's death. Bunnicula is now pretty higher on my list.

<snip>

Durga has seemed off this game and hasn't been asking the tough questions I saw her ask last time and has been shitposting interspersed with a little bit of righteous indignation for not being seen as obv town yet.

As for Jamie, he's been far too nice and unabrasive. Someone told me in the last game Jamie fakes being nice when he's scum where he feels more comfortable being an asshole when he's town.
Durga wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:24 pm

Honestly I said this before but this is the most townie I've ever seen bunny play and last game I thought he was soooo scummy but he was town. That being said, he did sub in and was following the game prior so its much easier to fake townie thoughts. Bunny's meta was also hella different when he *was* scum. But it's not out of his range to fake it.
You're saying posts of this nature should be banned?
What about the posts where she knew that TFB was hanging out on discord and ignoring the game?

I’m NOT saying that my solution is correct. I AM saying that without rules dictating what’s allowed and what’s not, the game doesn’t have meaning towards opinions. And having rules that are as tight as people say they want is hard to do.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3317 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:14 pm

snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:08 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:20 pm
snowy801 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:44 pm

It's not complicated Bunny. Just don't talk about any meta knowledge you possess.

What firmer line do you want?
So you're ok with people acting on meta knowledge, as long as they don't talk about it?

Also, how do you define "meta knowledge" ?
“Villains often try to get clever, to stump me with philosophical questions like ‘what is evil?’ To which I answer ‘generally, people asking me that question’, which somehow they never see coming.”
– Aldred Alban of Callow, the Prince Errant

Jamiet none of what you just described is metagaming. One might hope you would've known the difference, but I suppose said one is far too hopeful.
You said people weren't allowed to talk about "meta knowledge". My point is that I don't think the parameters for what is and what is not "meta knowledge" is as clearly defined as you seem to think it is.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3318 Post by snowy801 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pm

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever played mafia outside of this forum? I imagine you might have, but this discussion made me think otherwise.

If you have, you'd know that each and every person has their own take on what is and isn't acceptable behavior in any given game, even separated from the topic of metagaming. I am not interested in litigating the details of such actions, as long as I can quell the source of the issue: people like you two. If you would like to propose such guidelines you are welcome on your own time and effort.

So long as you do away with the thin pretense that this is an actual problem of discernment rather than concern trolling with the intent to justify cheating, I don't particularly care what it is you do or how you define metagaming. The vast majority of people do not have a problem with this. Have you ever wondered why you do?

That said, in this particular instance I suggested that Bunny be given a quick private word instead of anything serious because the instance was largely harmless and I am prone to believe that scum players should generally be allowed a wider range of actions than town (lurking, for example). That said, if we allowed scum players the pretense of metagaming and cracked down on town, it would itself be a problematic signal. Best to do away with it in its entire.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3319 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pm

Durga wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:05 am
and now instead of providing this QUOTE by this MYSTERY PERSON he refers to to figure out WHY THEY KILLED GHUG (as if it is the world's weirdest kill or some shit) he is shitposting on discord!!!!

someone pls clear tfb before i tunnel into oblivion.
@snowy. I don’t think knowledge that is only accessible to those in a specific server is great. But again…the game should have rules that give it meaning. Games are at their core a silly thing that only has honor and meaning by the community agreeing on it.

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Re: M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

#3320 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pm

So let's imagine I'm friends with another webDip Mafia player on Facebook. We'll call this fictional person "M.D." to avoid upsetting any real people.

Now let's assume he and I are both in an ongoing Mafia game. I am Town and I've had suspicions that he is Mafia. He's been under some pressure from someone else and hasn't posted for several hours.

I notice M.D. post on Facebook to say "Whoopee-doo, my parole officer let me go home early, so I'm going to sit around in my stars-and-bars pyjamas and watch my Glenn Beck DVDs all afternoon."

I can see he is still avoiding the Mafia thread and I conclude that he is probably scum waiting for the heat to die down in the hope that town will start tunnelling on someone else. This solidifies my scumread on him and I decide to vote for him.

Snowy appears to be saying that it should be against the rules, in this situation, for me to explain my vote for M.D.

I think that's problematic.
There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. - Lenin.

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