M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

[President Eden]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

My understanding is that Eden saw a thing, got really excited when some other people saw it too, and then is having a hard time accepting that the details don't line up with some of damo's comments. Damo would know that he would have to be consistent with his softs in order for them to be picked up if he died before revealing, if he was cop, so while the idea is enticing, I don't think it's especially likely that damo is the cop.

Refresh me on why you're voting for Chaqa.

[Bonatogether]

I think the problem here is that you want to kill someone who claimed a role that hasn't been cc'd. Even if you think he's scummy, that's not how this works on d2, and I feel like you should know that.

bona's also noticeably opined to vote out Chaqa. How do you feel about his addition to the wagon?

Okay so I saw that and ignored it and then stopped myself and thought "hmm why did I ignore this post from bona" and then I realized it's because (i'm sorry bona) bona isn't the type of player to really influence anyone else's thoughts and nothing in that para was new or worth addressing so I left him to do whatever he's doing. I noticed there are a few players I do this to after I read Bunny's post and I think that's just the nature of the game being this big. I'll sort them out later.

Figures

[kgray]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

I don't care about being a town clear. I pushed Chaqa pretty hard after ghug and kgray made solid arguments for him being mafia. I thought his Cop claim was bullshit when it happened and still think so. Overnight, when I did my reread, it struck me that damo might be the real Cop, because he was sure I was town from the beginning, before I think I really merited that feeling. I don't see any reason why damo would have been killed over Bunny or Chaqa or some universal town read except if mafia believed him to be a PR.

I don't appreciate you inserting this false narrative of vainglory when I'm earnestly presenting my opinions, being very careful to state how strongly I think they're backed by the evidence, and giving ample credit to other players for their insights where it's due.

Kind of weird that you assumed damo was town from the beginning when he'd been reading you as obvtown, but it didn't occur to you that he was the cop with a scan on you. Especially since you were sus of Chaqa for declaring you town....

[Bonatogether]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

My understanding is that Eden saw a thing, got really excited when some other people saw it too, and then is having a hard time accepting that the details don't line up with some of damo's comments. Damo would know that he would have to be consistent with his softs in order for them to be picked up if he died before revealing, if he was cop, so while the idea is enticing, I don't think it's especially likely that damo is the cop.

Refresh me on why you're voting for Chaqa.

As town, he wouldn't be useful, even if he is cop, due to being rbed. If he's scum, keeping him around is strictly negative since he won't slip anything. Therefore, not voting him out is either not-good or bad, so we should vote him out.

[snowy801]

It is unclear to me how much of this is misrepresentation and how much genuine misunderstanding, so let me summarize my thoughts on the matter of Chaqa.

Purely based on chance, the guy who chose to vote out day 1 just happening be the cop is very low. This is weighed against the inevitable draw PRs have for scum hunters, as their behavior is notably different. Especially if this chance is weighed upon the probability of the day 1 wagon being a scum faking a claim to save themself [math provided upon request].

Further, it was evident to me, and apparently others, that damo might viably be a cop candidate.

Thus, it seems likely to me that Chaqa very might well be scum. That all being said, as also previously stated, Chaqa is a largely self-resolving issue, the property of which was only brought into question as the guy many pegged to be a potential cop was killed in the last night, lessening the probability of a true counter-claim.

However, it does not strike me as likely that damo would so blatantly seed cop if he truly were one, which makes me inclined to believe he was VT drawing a NK. Given this premise, it seems more likely Chaqa exists in the space between scum and yet-to-be-counterclaimed, and thus is not an issue that needs to be resolved immediately.

Whether the oracle ought to be burned for the purpose of determining this is not clear to me, especially as either way Chaqa will likely soak up all the roleblocks to come, and as someone said earlier it might be best to determine the role of someone whose alignment we are not clear on.

This all was stated, and so I find myself interested in the voices attempting to portray otherwise [Flum, Durga]. If you truly believed that I was advocating for the understanding that damo was cop and Chaqa mafia, and thus to vote him out, as I do not consider this to be an authentic belief. Instead of ascribing this belief to vague 'you were obviously going for this' dodges.

Fluminator quite clearly failed in this, but perhaps you can take a shot Durga.

[snowy801]

You're awfully certain Chaqa isn't the cop from the get go, and invested in proving he isn't. Why is that?

You think so? That's a good point.

What gave you the impression that
a) I am certain Chaqa is not the cop and
b) investing in proving thus?

If you can find any specific posts that points to this I'd be happy to see them.

Come on. You've been egging on this damo!cop idea for whatever reason don't pretend otherwise.

Oh sorry, I guess I took a while to write that up. The above text is in response to this.

[Durga]

The longer he waits to pull the trigger on counterclaiming, the more time he buys to gather information with his role. Especially given that there was a vocal contingent of players calling bullshit on Chaqa’s claim, it seems plausible to me that he would play it cool and try to get more info before making his move. You’ll notice that he carefully avoided giving any opinion on Chaqa.

He full up said Chaqa could be cop, town, or scum. Why would you say that if you're cop. All PR's are constantly afraid that somehow they've been found out and may be the NK. Damo would somehow put in his EoN post that Chaqa shouldn't be trusted, whether subtle or not. That does not exist. At all. That I've seen anyway.

I'm kinda shocked that you're still pushing this narrative when we've already looked through damo's posts and he doesn't negatively react at all to Chaqa's claim. Please point to me how he "carefully avoided giving any opinion" when it seems like he was just null on Chaqa and wanted to see how it played out... and a reasonable PR would at least be like "hm this claim was kinda weird"

I feel like you would push this narrative no matter how damo read Chaqa and find a way to make damo's words into whatever you wanted them to be. How very lawyer-y of you.

He said this:

Chaqa - could be cop, VT or scum, to be discussed tomorrow should he survive

In the same post he described many people as null:

Bona - difficult to read as ever, I assume not online for EOD as vote stayed on Chaqa, null

Bozo - seems a bit understated, slightly scum side of null

Durga - initially thought she was town, now not quite so sure but still townside of null but only just

lfischl - doing the minimum again, null, townside if pushed

rdr - minimal posting, null

Vecna - hasn't obv'd yet, I'm sure he will, null for timebeing

worcej - not really sure why he was such a big wagon yesterday, null at mo

If he thought Chaqa were null, he would have said null, as he did for seven other people. He didn't, and he specifically said he would be discussing it tomorrow should Chaqa survive.

I don't understand:
(1) why you think reading that to mean he avoided an opinion on Chaqa is unreasonable,
(2) why you are suggesting I am making this argument in bad faith, or
(3) why you are being needlessly aggressive and making things personal.

Okay I'm

Why would he say chaqa is null like the rest of the people he used the word for when Chaqa has claimed a role and obviously has to be sorted into a different category.

I'm not making it personal. Sorry if you felt that way. The lawyer-y thing is a joke because that's what we do as lawyers

[President Eden]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

I don't care about being a town clear. I pushed Chaqa pretty hard after ghug and kgray made solid arguments for him being mafia. I thought his Cop claim was bullshit when it happened and still think so. Overnight, when I did my reread, it struck me that damo might be the real Cop, because he was sure I was town from the beginning, before I think I really merited that feeling. I don't see any reason why damo would have been killed over Bunny or Chaqa or some universal town read except if mafia believed him to be a PR.

I don't appreciate you inserting this false narrative of vainglory when I'm earnestly presenting my opinions, being very careful to state how strongly I think they're backed by the evidence, and giving ample credit to other players for their insights where it's due.

Kind of weird that you assumed damo was town from the beginning when he'd been reading you as obvtown, but it didn't occur to you that he was the cop with a scan on you. Especially since you were sus of Chaqa for declaring you town....

My read on damo had nothing conscious to do with his townreading me. Maybe it left me more predisposed to do so, but it was the way that he quickly provided constructive insights on the setup and then started sorting people that had me townread him.

I can't say I remember being suspicious of Chaqa for declaring me town, but maybe there was something else going on with it, or maybe I simply forgot. Without remembering I'd venture a guess that it was the way in which he did it and not the act of doing it that would have sounded alarm bells.

And I'm not sure why it would be weird that the Cop thing didn't occur to me. The Cop having a d0 scan is relatively unusual. It's similar to when ghug asked me about no voting last night - yea, maybe if I'd been paying better attention it would have occurred to me, but it's not a very intuitive interaction.

[Durga]

bona's also noticeably opined to vote out Chaqa. How do you feel about his addition to the wagon?

Okay so I saw that and ignored it and then stopped myself and thought "hmm why did I ignore this post from bona" and then I realized it's because (i'm sorry bona) bona isn't the type of player to really influence anyone else's thoughts and nothing in that para was new or worth addressing so I left him to do whatever he's doing. I noticed there are a few players I do this to after I read Bunny's post and I think that's just the nature of the game being this big. I'll sort them out later.

Figures

I still think you're awesome tho!!!! Just stop voting Chaqa it isn't happening

[snowy801]

bona are you even reading all these posts before you +1 them?

[Durga]

It is unclear to me how much of this is misrepresentation and how much genuine misunderstanding, so let me summarize my thoughts on the matter of Chaqa.

Purely based on chance, the guy who chose to vote out day 1 just happening be the cop is very low. This is weighed against the inevitable draw PRs have for scum hunters, as their behavior is notably different. Especially if this chance is weighed upon the probability of the day 1 wagon being a scum faking a claim to save themself [math provided upon request].

Further, it was evident to me, and apparently others, that damo might viably be a cop candidate.

Thus, it seems likely to me that Chaqa very might well be scum. That all being said, as also previously stated, Chaqa is a largely self-resolving issue, the property of which was only brought into question as the guy many pegged to be a potential cop was killed in the last night, lessening the probability of a true counter-claim.

However, it does not strike me as likely that damo would so blatantly seed cop if he truly were one, which makes me inclined to believe he was VT drawing a NK. Given this premise, it seems more likely Chaqa exists in the space between scum and yet-to-be-counterclaimed, and thus is not an issue that needs to be resolved immediately.

Whether the oracle ought to be burned for the purpose of determining this is not clear to me, especially as either way Chaqa will likely soak up all the roleblocks to come, and as someone said earlier it might be best to determine the role of someone whose alignment we are not clear on.

This all was stated, and so I find myself interested in the voices attempting to portray otherwise [Flum, Durga]. If you truly believed that I was advocating for the understanding that damo was cop and Chaqa mafia, and thus to vote him out, as I do not consider this to be an authentic belief. Instead of ascribing this belief to vague 'you were obviously going for this' dodges.

Fluminator quite clearly failed in this, but perhaps you can take a shot Durga.

Okay this is a lot better stated than what I read from you from the beginning of d2 I think. At least for my personal understanding. I am however not going to go back and find the quotes of yours I didn't like because I'm sleepy. My impression is you were encouraging PE's idea we should daykill Chaqa today. It doesn't appear as if you're saying that here.

Where did damo blatantly seed cop?

[kgray]

I don't care about being a town clear. I pushed Chaqa pretty hard after ghug and kgray made solid arguments for him being mafia. I thought his Cop claim was bullshit when it happened and still think so. Overnight, when I did my reread, it struck me that damo might be the real Cop, because he was sure I was town from the beginning, before I think I really merited that feeling. I don't see any reason why damo would have been killed over Bunny or Chaqa or some universal town read except if mafia believed him to be a PR.

I don't appreciate you inserting this false narrative of vainglory when I'm earnestly presenting my opinions, being very careful to state how strongly I think they're backed by the evidence, and giving ample credit to other players for their insights where it's due.

Kind of weird that you assumed damo was town from the beginning when he'd been reading you as obvtown, but it didn't occur to you that he was the cop with a scan on you. Especially since you were sus of Chaqa for declaring you town....

My read on damo had nothing conscious to do with his townreading me. Maybe it left me more predisposed to do so, but it was the way that he quickly provided constructive insights on the setup and then started sorting people that had me townread him.

I can't say I remember being suspicious of Chaqa for declaring me town, but maybe there was something else going on with it, or maybe I simply forgot. Without remembering I'd venture a guess that it was the way in which he did it and not the act of doing it that would have sounded alarm bells.

And I'm not sure why it would be weird that the Cop thing didn't occur to me. The Cop having a d0 scan is relatively unusual. It's similar to when ghug asked me about no voting last night - yea, maybe if I'd been paying better attention it would have occurred to me, but it's not a very intuitive interaction.

Oh, I actually misread the underlined part of you prev post, my bad... I thought you said you were sure damo was town from the beginning. And that made me wonder why you suspected Chaqa's townread on you but not damo's... anyway, thanks for explaining, carry on.

[Bonatogether]

Okay so I saw that and ignored it and then stopped myself and thought "hmm why did I ignore this post from bona" and then I realized it's because (i'm sorry bona) bona isn't the type of player to really influence anyone else's thoughts and nothing in that para was new or worth addressing so I left him to do whatever he's doing. I noticed there are a few players I do this to after I read Bunny's post and I think that's just the nature of the game being this big. I'll sort them out later.

Figures

I still think you're awesome tho!!!! Just stop voting Chaqa it isn't happening

That's not the point of voting Chaqa

[Bonatogether]

bona are you even reading all these posts before you +1 them?

Yeah

[snowy801]

Okay this is a lot better stated than what I read from you from the beginning of d2 I think. At least for my personal understanding. I am however not going to go back and find the quotes of yours I didn't like because I'm sleepy. My impression is you were encouraging PE's idea we should daykill Chaqa today. It doesn't appear as if you're saying that here.

Where did damo blatantly seed cop?

I don't make it a habit of just outright stating my conclusions at the start of the day, as I believe it restricts the breadth of discussion and draws lines of contention when an open conversation might be preferred.

I don't know how you saw my voting Flum, then lfischl led you to believe that I was pushing for a Chaqa vote. I do, however, see the angle from which such an artifice might be constructed which makes me scum read Flum much harder. On that topic, I voted Flum to see how Chaqa would react to my voting his inno, but he didn't bite so I moved on. My scum reading him didn't all that factor into it, as Flum also benefits from Chaqa's eventual resolution and thus is not a priority sort.

damo's first comment was that he thinks Eden is obvtown. His first reads list, scrounged up from nowhere, repeated this. He later randomly states Eden is obvtown once again, at which point you decided to call him out for it. It was obvious if you were looking for it. Eden apparently noted it at night, but I had it in mind from not even the 24H, which perhaps makes me thing the seeding is more blatant that it truly was.

[snowy801]

bona are you even reading all these posts before you +1 them?

Yeah

You're a hell of a faster reader than I am then, I guess.

[Fluminator]

I get the vibe PE is misguided town who just really wants to be the townclear.
Sorry buddy, but that's me this game.

I don't care about being a town clear. I pushed Chaqa pretty hard after ghug and kgray made solid arguments for him being mafia. I thought his Cop claim was bullshit when it happened and still think so. Overnight, when I did my reread, it struck me that damo might be the real Cop, because he was sure I was town from the beginning, before I think I really merited that feeling. I don't see any reason why damo would have been killed over Bunny or Chaqa or some universal town read except if mafia believed him to be a PR.

I don't appreciate you inserting this false narrative of vainglory when I'm earnestly presenting my opinions, being very careful to state how strongly I think they're backed by the evidence, and giving ample credit to other players for their insights where it's due.

There's nothing wrong with seeking vainglory if that's the subconscious motive.

[Bonatogether]

bona are you even reading all these posts before you +1 them?

Yeah

You're a hell of a faster reader than I am then, I guess.

I speedread in class, and I'm also not taking the time to respond to a lot of them.

[Durga]

Okay this is a lot better stated than what I read from you from the beginning of d2 I think. At least for my personal understanding. I am however not going to go back and find the quotes of yours I didn't like because I'm sleepy. My impression is you were encouraging PE's idea we should daykill Chaqa today. It doesn't appear as if you're saying that here.

Where did damo blatantly seed cop?

I don't make it a habit of just outright stating my conclusions at the start of the day, as I believe it restricts the breadth of discussion and draws lines of contention when an open conversation might be preferred.

I don't know how you saw my voting Flum, then lfischl led you to believe that I was pushing for a Chaqa vote. I do, however, see the angle from which such an artifice might be constructed which makes me scum read Flum much harder. On that topic, I voted Flum to see how Chaqa would react to my voting his inno, but he didn't bite so I moved on. My scum reading him didn't all that factor into it, as Flum also benefits from Chaqa's eventual resolution and thus is not a priority sort.

damo's first comment was that he thinks Eden is obvtown. His first reads list, scrounged up from nowhere, repeated this. He later randomly states Eden is obvtown once again, at which point you decided to call him out for it. It was obvious if you were looking for it. Eden apparently noted it at night, but I had it in mind from not even the 24H, which perhaps makes me thing the seeding is more blatant that it truly was.

Naw, Flum didn't influence how I perceived that situation. Whenever I go back and reread it I'll let you know. But I can say that my thoughts aligned exactly with how Flum was interpreting everyone's messages.

[Doom427]

I've literally keep writing out posts, than deleting them cause I realize I have no idea what to say. I guess I want to say Durga's posts have all been really good and helpful for me all of Day 2.